User talk:Neveselbert
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Governorate of the Vatican City State
[edit]It is true that by law, the pope is the head of state and government of Vatican City, however, he has the power to delegate his governing executive power of the country to the President of the Governorate of Vatican City. She is the de facto head of government. There is precedent for a de facto head of government being included in this list with Aung San Suu Kyi of Myanmar. All popes since the creation of the Vatican City State have delegated their governing power to the head of government. Not only this, but on other wikipedia pages such as List of current heads of state and government and list of current state leaders by date of assumption of office list sister Raffaella Petrini, President of the Governorate, as head of government. JMendoza04 (talk) 15:48, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Hi JMendoza04, I see where you're coming from regarding de facto heads of government. I moved Petrini to the List of elected and appointed female deputy heads of government article simply to keep things consistent with how the female prime ministers of Peru are treated. It's not perfect, but it seemed the most consistent approach for now. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:27, 29 April 2025 (UTC)
- Hi yes that sounds good for now. Although I want to clarify that the role of head of government itself is delegated to Petrini and not just the responsibilities of head go government, so I would think makes her proper head of government by the appointment of the absolute monarch (pope). Do with the info what you will. Thank you for your cooperation! JMendoza04 (talk) 14:18, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks JMendoza04. I take your point, though from what I understand, while the pope delegates executive authority to the President of the Governorate, he remains the legal head of government under Vatican law. That makes Petrini a de facto head, not a formal one, similar to how Peruvian prime ministers are appointed and exercise executive power but aren't listed among heads of government either. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:21, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- I understand this however, Aung San Suu Kyi was also de facto head of government. Her role, State Councilor, was not in the Burmese constitution but she is still included in the list. JMendoza04 (talk) 22:38, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- @JMendoza04: I take the point about Aung San Suu Kyi, though I'd say her case was quite exceptional. She was widely recognised both domestically and internationally as the true head of government, in a context where the de jure president was effectively ceremonial. That's different from Vatican City, where the pope remains the legal and central governing authority, and the President of the Governorate acts under his delegated power rather than replacing him. So for now, I think it makes sense to treat Petrini as a deputy, in line with how similar delegated roles are handled elsewhere. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:46, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- I do understand this about Aung San Suu Kyi however, I know that popes have not taken on any governing role in Vatican City because they choose to focus more on the governing of the church. I would say that it is also the case in Vatican City that Petrini and her predecessors have acted as sole head of government while the popes have acted more as a ceremonial head of state similar to a constitutional monarchy. Perhaps it would be possible to include her in list of elected and appointed female heads of state and government but to format her space the same way as Aung San Suu Kyi? By listing her as De facto head of government and De facto head of state? JMendoza04 (talk) 02:47, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JMendoza04: I agree it's worth clarifying Petrini's role. That said, I'd hesitate to equate the pope with a ceremonial head of state. Even if he delegates daily governance, he remains the legal and supreme executive authority in both state and church. Unlike Aung San Suu Kyi's case, where the de jure head was symbolic and she displaced them in practice, Petrini operates under explicit delegation and does not replace the pope in either capacity. If there's consensus later on for a separate note or formatting similar to Aung San Suu Kyi's entry, I'm open to that discussion, but for now I think her inclusion in the deputy heads of government article remains the most consistent approach. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 21:18, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
- Yes I think that is a good idea. Maybe she could be labeled as "delegated head of government?" The reason I am so persistent is because she is more powerful than a Peruvian or Mozambican prime minister. Under those systems, the president is also head of state and government, like the pope, but only some responsibilities are delegated to the prime ministers. In Vatican City, full governing authority is delegated. She truly acts as the head of government. Maybe delegated head of government would be sufficient to describe she does not have full constitutional recognition as head of government, but for all intents and purposes, acts as the head of government. JMendoza04 (talk) 02:59, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JMendoza04: I agree it's worth clarifying Petrini's role. That said, I'd hesitate to equate the pope with a ceremonial head of state. Even if he delegates daily governance, he remains the legal and supreme executive authority in both state and church. Unlike Aung San Suu Kyi's case, where the de jure head was symbolic and she displaced them in practice, Petrini operates under explicit delegation and does not replace the pope in either capacity. If there's consensus later on for a separate note or formatting similar to Aung San Suu Kyi's entry, I'm open to that discussion, but for now I think her inclusion in the deputy heads of government article remains the most consistent approach. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 21:18, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
- I do understand this about Aung San Suu Kyi however, I know that popes have not taken on any governing role in Vatican City because they choose to focus more on the governing of the church. I would say that it is also the case in Vatican City that Petrini and her predecessors have acted as sole head of government while the popes have acted more as a ceremonial head of state similar to a constitutional monarchy. Perhaps it would be possible to include her in list of elected and appointed female heads of state and government but to format her space the same way as Aung San Suu Kyi? By listing her as De facto head of government and De facto head of state? JMendoza04 (talk) 02:47, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
- @JMendoza04: I take the point about Aung San Suu Kyi, though I'd say her case was quite exceptional. She was widely recognised both domestically and internationally as the true head of government, in a context where the de jure president was effectively ceremonial. That's different from Vatican City, where the pope remains the legal and central governing authority, and the President of the Governorate acts under his delegated power rather than replacing him. So for now, I think it makes sense to treat Petrini as a deputy, in line with how similar delegated roles are handled elsewhere. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:46, 1 May 2025 (UTC)
- I understand this however, Aung San Suu Kyi was also de facto head of government. Her role, State Councilor, was not in the Burmese constitution but she is still included in the list. JMendoza04 (talk) 22:38, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks JMendoza04. I take your point, though from what I understand, while the pope delegates executive authority to the President of the Governorate, he remains the legal head of government under Vatican law. That makes Petrini a de facto head, not a formal one, similar to how Peruvian prime ministers are appointed and exercise executive power but aren't listed among heads of government either. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:21, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- Hi yes that sounds good for now. Although I want to clarify that the role of head of government itself is delegated to Petrini and not just the responsibilities of head go government, so I would think makes her proper head of government by the appointment of the absolute monarch (pope). Do with the info what you will. Thank you for your cooperation! JMendoza04 (talk) 14:18, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
Category State funerals
[edit]Hello! You reverted my addition of the State funerals category to the Death and state funeral of Jimmy Carter, stating that it is "already in subcat". I'm not sure what that means though. Jimmy Carter's funeral article does not appear anywhere on Category:State funerals, which is where I'd like it to be listed.
I see that there is a subcat of "State funerals by country" in the category, but that subcat requires the person searching for an article to know what country the person's state funeral was held in. What happens when the person searching only knows the name of the person but not their country? If I'm missing something here, please let me know. Thank you! Regards, Spintendo 00:25, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
- Hi Spintendo, thanks for your message. I reverted your addition because Death and state funeral of Jimmy Carter is already included in the subcategory Category:State funerals in the United States, which is itself a subcategory of Category:State funerals. Per WP:CAT, articles are generally not placed in both a category and its subcategory unless the subcategory is non-diffusing. Hope that clarifies, happy to discuss further if needed. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:37, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
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Administrators' newsletter – May 2025
[edit]News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2025).
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3RR warning
[edit]Hi Neveselbert,
Over the past day or so, you have repeatedly removed links to the city of Chicago on the page for Pope Leo XIV. As a number of users have reverted that change and have disagreed with the argument that Wikipedia guidelines prohibit links to Chicago, please do not continue to redo your change. Instead, it's important to find consensus on the talk page. Otherwise, your edits may be considered edit warring and in violation of WP:3RR.