Talk:HNLMS Java (1921)

GA review

This review is transcluded from Talk:HNLMS Java (1921)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: GGOTCC (talk · contribs) 06:50, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Reviewer: Noleander (talk · contribs) 21:42, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Comments from Noleander

• Wording/grammar She was laid down in 1916, but a series of delays saw her commissioning nearly a decade later in 1925. my ear wants to hear "delayed" between "commissioning" and "nearly". Consider She was laid down in 1916, but a series of obstacles caused her commissioning to be delayed until 1925.
  • Fixed
• Spell out acronym ABDA ... she joined allied forces as part of the ABDA fleet, participated in.... The number of WP users that will know what ABDA stands for is 0.0000001% I think the WP MOS suggests spelling out first usage in the article. ... she joined allied forces as part of the American-British-Dutch-Australian Command (ABDA) fleet, participated in... I know that makes the sentence rather long, but maybe it could be split into two?
  • Fixed. The full name is ugly, but I agree.
• Dash v hyphen? offensive fleet - the Combined Striking Force - composed ... The rule used to be to use n-dash instead of hphen in that situation, but maybe they've changed it lately? I always thought the longer n-dashes looked nicer: offensive fleet – the Combined Striking Force – composed ... But again, I'm not sure what the WP MOS says about dashes these days.
  • How does it look now? I used the En-dash template
• Date of sinking/deaths? Sinking .... .The cruisers were temporarily followed by Japanese ... Sad event. I don't see the date of the sinking & deaths in the "Sinking" section, but maybe I'm just overlooking it. Readers could probably calculate the date by scrolling up to the Battle of the Java Sea, getting a date, counting the number of night/day cycles, and doing some arithmetic, but why make them work?
  • Added mention of dates and time under 'Sinking', which falls under 'Battle of the Java Sea' which also mentioned date. Would I be allowed to subtract 19 from the ship's compliment listed in another book to provide a death toll, even if there is nothing that mentions how many people were onboard when she sank?
• Depth of water where sunk? I'm accustomed to being informed of the depth of water when a wreck is found. I don't see it in the article. Apologies if it is there and I'm missing it.
  • Done. I cited a government report. Is it possible to add an Archive.org link to a PDF?
• External links: record of movement from her launching to sinking. It would look nicer with a capital letter at start: Record of movement from her launching to sinking.
  • Done!
• Commissioning date? I don't see date of commissioning. Would help readers place the timeframe for the sentence: After her commissioning, Java sailed ...
  • None of my sources mention her comissioning. I changed the terminology in the article to regard her completion. Other articles that list her as being comissioned on 1 May are incorrect as that is not what is in the references.
• Fuel? Can you tell readers what sort of fuel the engines used?
  • Mentioned fuel oil.
• Name of captain/commander? I realize that the commanders probably rotated every 2 to 3 years, but it seems odd to not mention any of them. If the sources mention the name of the commander at the time of sinking, that may be of interest to readers.
  • Added an interlanguage link to Philippus van Straelen. Is this what you had in mind, or would you like more?
• Inconsistent acronym: I see both ABDACOM and ABDA. They both look valid, but it is best to pick one and use it everywhere.
  • Standardized, good catch
• Confusing: By 1922, the Washington Naval Treaty created a new standard of cruiser equipped with 203 mm (8.0 in) guns, which Japan heavily invested in. Other elements of her design were dated at launch, such as her guns. The first talks about guns, and implies that the Java had old guns. The 2nd sentence says "other things were dated, including guns". But guns were already mentioned in the 1st sentence.
  • I reworded the section. How does it sound now?
• That's all for now. Ping me when the above are addressed/resolved and I'll make a 2nd pass. Note that some of the above are optional suggestions. Noleander (talk) 21:42, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

  @Noleander This should be the last of your innitial points addressed, and thank you again! GGOTCC (talk) 23:00, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you for the review! I've already made some changes, this should be quick. GGOTCC (talk) 22:18, 18 April 2025

(UTC)

• Minutes until sinking: 2 or 15? This artcle says struck by a torpedo from Nachi near her magazine ... . The ship sank in 15 minutes, ... but the Battle of the Java Sea article says The torpedo ignited the magazines to Java's 5.9-inch (15 cm) main battery, and a massive explosion blew the cruiser apart in an instant. In under two minutes, Java sank, with only 19 of her crew of 526 surviving.[5][7][9][13][51]. You should edit one of the two articles so they are consistent. Also, the latter article seems to have more specificity about where the ship was struck.

• Wording could be better: The wreck's disappearance was part of a trend where shallow World War II-era shipwrecks were blown apart and salvaged by groups posing as ... "disappearance" gives the wrong impression; better is "destruction" or "salvage" or similar. Consider Investigation determined that the wreck was blown apart and salvaged by a group posing as ... [perhaps mention "trend" and "multiple wrecks salvaged by multiple groups" fact in a footnote, or in a 2nd sentence]

• Picture captions end in period? Japanese heavy cruiser Nachi (pictured) torpedoed Java with devastating effect There are differing opinions on whether captions should end in periods or not. One rule is that if the caption is a complete sentence, then it should end with a period. Not required for GA, but it caught my eye.

• Responsibility: The vessel believed to be responsible, the Chinese dredger Chuan Hong 68, was detained by Malaysian authorities i... That seems to blame Chinese companies; but the source https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/22/bodies-of-second-world-war-sailors-in-java-sea-dumped-in-mass-grave says "... those employed by the illegal scavengers to cut up the ships on Indonesian soil had also found skulls, jawbones, feet and hand bones, hips and ribs during their work. It was claimed that the remains were dumped in a mass grave near the port of Brondong, in east Java." Which indicates involvement by Indonesian companies. That is significant, because Indonesia used to be a Dutch colony. I think the improper treatment of war graves is important, and if sources can pinpoint blame, that should be in the article, but as the article reads now, it unfairly singles out China, when Indonesian companies were also involved. Suggest (a) mention Indonesian companies, if sources support it; and (b) specify that location of "mass graves" is in Indonesia, not China.

• Above you asked Is it possible to add an Archive.org link to a PDF? Editors generally should not add archive URLs into cites, because they might make mistakes. WP has a bot that goes thru all cites aboaut once a week or so and finds the archive URL (if it exists) and automatically inserts it into the cite.

What editors should do is include an "access-date" tag into the cite showing the date that they read/viewed the source. The cite for the wreck is:

{{Cite web |date=9 February 2017 |title=Verification of the Location and Condition of the Dutch Shipwrecks in the Java Sea |url=https://english.cultureelerfgoed.nl/binaries/cultureelerfgoed-en/documenten/publications/2017/01/01/report-of-the-dutch-shipwrecks-in-the-java-sea/Verification_of_the_location_and+_ondition_of_the_Dutch_Shipwrecks_in_the_Java_Sea.pdf |url-status=live |website=[[Rijksdienst voor het Cultureel Erfgoed]] ( Cultural Heritage Agency of the Netherlands) |page=27}}

That cite has a couple of issues: (a) you must add tag access-date=April 18, 2025 so that the bot can fetch the correct archive URL from the web; and (b) that cite should not have "url_status=.." tag because that tag is inserted by the bot when it scrutinizes the cites. Ditto for "archive-url" tag .. editors should never insert that manually, cuz the bot inserts that. It is all automatic... if you come back in a week or two, check the revision history of the article and you'll see some edits by "citation-bot" that improved the cites and added archive URLs, etc.

• @GGOTCC: That's all. Notify me when the above are address/resolved and I'll finalize the review. Note that some are optional suggestions. Noleander (talk) 13:51, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

  @Noleander How does it look now? I addressed your other points and fixed the Battle of the Java Sea article. Does the current Wreck section seem appropiate to you? GGOTCC 14:46, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, the Wreck section looks superb. If you can address the final "access-date" issue (added late) above that is the final issue. Noleander (talk) 14:55, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

  .. in fact, you might want to ensure that all cites that use "cite web" have "access-date" tag. The date should be the date that you visited the web site & read the web site. The "access-date" tag is also ideally included in other cites (books, journals) when those cites include a "url" tag. Noleander (talk) 14:57, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

  Sure thing! GGOTCC 15:04, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

  Done! Thank you for the review, I learned a lot from you! Cheers, GGOTCC 14:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

• GA review was Passed. Good job on the article. Noleander (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2025 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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HNLMS Java several years prior to her sinking

• ... that when HNLMS Java (pictured) was sunk, her crew struggled to access the ship's life vests because the vests were locked away in a hard to reach compartment?

• Source: "...Captain van Straelen gave the order to abandon ship. Initially there was no panic in the veteran crew of the Java, but that changed because of a very questionable policy; the cruiser’s life vests had been locked in a room. The room had one door, and the rush to get in and out through that one door became a panicked mob." - Page 317, Rising Sun, Falling Skies: The disastrous Java Sea Campaign of World War II by Jeffrey Cox

• Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by GGOTCC (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

GGOTCC 20:58, 19 April 2025 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image eligibility:

• Freely licensed:
• Used in article:
• Clear at 100px: - ?

QPQ: None required.

Overall: New enough (promoted to GA status yesterday) and long enough. Article is well-written and appears neutral (my only comments would be that I think the word "Miraculously" can be removed from the second paragraph of the "Dutch East Indies Campaign" section, and in the last paragraph of the "Sinking" section I think there is a typo where the word "mod" should read as "mob"). Appears to be plagiarism-free (Earwig stands at 8.3%). Hook is OK and cited in an offline source so I'm assuming good faith in this case. I would slightly alter its wording to read as follows:

• ALT1: ... that when HNLMS Java (pictured) was sunk, her crew struggled to access the ship's life vests because they were locked away in a hard to reach compartment?

Pic is freely-licensed but I don't think it would be the best choice for the main page given the lack of contrast between the ship and the sky in the B&W photo. The pic in the main infobox is much better, but since it shows the ship in its pre-1937 configuration I understand why it wasn't chosen for this nomination given that the hook relates to the ship's sinking. Perhaps File:Hr.Ms. kruiser Java (1921) in camouflagekleuren tijdens de oorlog met Japan (2158 005320).jpg can be used as an alternative, since it also shows the ship in its final configuration (but it is not currently used in the article)? Almost good to go - @GGOTCC: waiting for your thoughts on the revised hook and my other comments above. Xwejnusgozo (talk) 19:20, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

• • @Xwejnusgozo: Thank you for the input! I made the changes you mentioned, and I agree with ALT1. I was going to use that as the innitial hook, but I thought someone was going to object to the use of 'they' as the term could refer to the life vests or the sailors. Would it okay to use File:Java cruiser SLV H91.325 284.jpg instead, even though it was taken before her 1937 refit? Also, should I update the origonal hook or remake it in a reply to this convo? Best, GGOTCC 21:16, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

@GGOTCC: Now that you mention it I understand your point. I know it's nitpicking, but perhaps if we just change the word "they" to "these" it would avoid all ambiguity?

HNLMS Java in her original configuration

• ALT1a: ... that when HNLMS Java (pictured) was sunk, her crew struggled to access the ship's life vests because these were locked away in a hard to reach compartment?

File:Java cruiser SLV H91.325 284.jpg is in the public domain so it should not be an issue to use it. Ideally a post-refit image would be better, but given that this does indeed appear to be the best available image we have and considering that the refit did not completely alter the ship's appearance I have no objection to use it. I have taken the liberty of adding it to ALT1a above, and I believe there's no need for you to update the original hook. If you have no objection to ALT1a I'll mark this as good to go. Xwejnusgozo (talk) 22:48, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

@Xwejnusgozo: No objections here, thanks for the help! Only thing I would mention is that the image caption could be changed to something such as, "HNLMS Java as built" or something like that. GGOTCC 23:01, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

Image caption updated as requested. Good to go using ALT1a above. Well done! Xwejnusgozo (talk) 23:22, 20 April 2025 (UTC)