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April 14

Accidental gaps and pluralia tantum

Reading the accidental gap article, I started to wonder — in general, does this concept include the singular forms of pluralia tantum? I started wondering because I can't imagine a fundamental reason for English lacking nouns such as "clothe" or "outskirt". Nyttend (talk) 03:55, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is a fuzzy concept. Can we call the absence of a word *premostulation from the English lexicon an "accidental gap"? It is allowed in the phonological system of English, but it is hard to imagine a serious author giving this as an example instead of, say, *braff or *murt. All I can say is that this referring to a plurale tantum as an accidental gap be unusual, but take moslings, meaning "shreds of leather shaved off while dressing skin". It may be the case that no one used the term *mosling for a single shred of shaved-off leather for no other reason than that there was no need to refer to it. Or, perhaps, even while curriers used this singular, no one ever recorded the use. This would make the no-show of this singular in the English lexicon an accidental gap. (BTW, AFAICS, moslings is a dictionary-only word.) ‑‑Lambiam 06:16, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Technically or historically, I guess the singular of clothes is "cloth", although it isn't used to refer to a single piece of clothing. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:11, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Middle English, the singular form cloth could be used (like in modern English) as a mass noun meaning "woven fabric" and as a count noun meaning a piece of such fabric, but additionally with the meaning "garment", "the clothes someone is wearing": An al þat werieþ linnene cloþ – And all that wear linnen clothes.^[1] The latter sense of singular cloth was lost in modern English. ‑‑Lambiam 13:47, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This archaic 'garment' meaning is preserved as 'clout' (in Scotland, 'cloot') in words like 'breechclout' and in the proverb "Cast ne'er a clout 'til [the] May be out" (meaning 'Don't discard any clothing until the Hawthorn has blossomed'). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 18:04, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The singular of clothes is garment. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:33, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Clothes" was originally the plural of "cloth", but things evolved.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:05, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

English language in Quebec

Does Quebec allow English-language outdoor signage, at least in areas which have large number of English speakers, such as Montreal West, Westmount and Nunavik? And if there can be English street names with French prefixes, such as Rue King, can there also be English street name suffixes such as King Street? Can traffic signs have English text below or even above French text? I once thought that Eastern Townships is just like that, and being English-speaking. --40bus (talk) 05:56, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Google "are there english road signs in quebec" and you'll see that the answer is "Yes and No". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:00, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

One can use English (or other languages) on public signs as long as "French is markedly prominent". See here [3] The Eastern Townships (a name that is largely anachronistic by now) have not been majority English-speaking for a long time (see Estrie). And didn't you ask this question before, because I remember providing a similar answer. --Xuxl (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Can there be English-first public signs, at least in Anglophone-majority areas?

--40bus (talk) 21:49, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No. The official language of Quebec is French. See the link I provided above. The exceptions are buildings and sites owned by the Federal Government (e.g. airports) where the signage is bilingual with both languages given equal status, in accordance to the Official Languages Act (Canada). Xuxl (talk) 13:32, 16 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Has Quebec as a whole ever had English-speaking majority, and could it become such in the future? And are there any bilingual municipalities there? --40bus (talk) 20:54, 17 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why you are eager to see the disappearance of the French language in Quebec. It has had a majority French population since colonization started with the founding of Quebec City by Samuel de Champlain in 1608. It is still 80% French-speaking today. There have been small pockets where the population was majority English-speaking over time, but these have tended to move around (for example there was once a sizeable English-speaking community in Quebec City itself, but that has largely disappeared). The major source of tension was that the small English-speaking community tended to wield disproportionate political and economic power due to various factors. And lest you think there was some nefarious plot to drive out the English-speakers, you can find a similar but reverse phenomenon in other parts of Canada: for example, both Alberta and Manitoba used to be majority French-speaking. but that has not been the case for a long time. Xuxl (talk) 14:10, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Some signs in Quebec have French and Algonquin text.I'm not certain, but I suspect that in 1608 there were more Algonquin speakers in the area than French speakers. ‑‑Lambiam 15:33, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

At the time, New France was basically Quebec City and a very small area around that. Within a couple of decades, it would expand to most of the St. Lawrence Valley. French was the majority language in the area physically controlled by France. The modern borders of the province are not relevant to that period. Xuxl (talk) 13:44, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The question was about "Quebec as a whole", not "the historical core of Quebec". Also, on the Plancius/van Doetecom map of Nova Francia, published in 1592, the area labeled NOVA FRANCIA is several orders of magnitude larger than the compound with a few hundred settlers that was to become Quebec City. ‑‑Lambiam 19:54, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See [4]. 2A00:23C7:2B43:5D01:79B0:19BD:3435:7910 (talk) 15:48, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And for a second opinion, see here. It's not clear cut and there's a lot of politics around the issue. Xuxl (talk) 13:44, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

April 18

Phrasing

How come people say they "shatter" an ego or "break" a bad habit? Why those specific words? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 03:19, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? People are free to choose a more appropriate word, e.g. bruise and deflate an ego, crack or get rid or get out of a habit etc... Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:53, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The verb shatter suggests breaking into pieces; used metaphorically, it implies an utter destruction of something that was (metaphorically) fragile. Note that fragile ego is a common collocation, whereas fragile habit is not a thing. Bad habits are tough. The verb break is preferentially used for a rupture of a continuity, as in the connection was broken or the committee broke for lunch. The notion of a bad habit as something enduring but vanquishable by an interruption makes break a good choice for carrying the message. ‑‑Lambiam 09:29, 18 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary:break has under the verb form; "3. (transitive) To cause (a person or animal) to lose spirit or will", so perhaps breaking a habit is similar to breaking a horse? Alansplodge (talk) 11:39, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

They're called idioms. Not unlike clichés, they're standard forms of words that get used a lot. Other words are certainly possible but they would tend to mark the speaker as a non-native. For example, a great amount of wealth or a disproportionately large salary are often said to be "obscene", but there's no reason why they couldn't be described as something else. A soft surface might "break" one's fall from a height, but why couldn't it crush or destroy or snap or smash one's fall? They all mean roughly the same thing, but no native speaker would ever say those words in that context. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:31, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It could make sense to say something "brakes" one's fall. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:02, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Side comment: the spelling "brake" (for the device) did not replace "break" until the late 19th century. For example, see this accident report from 1887 where "break" is used consistently. --142.112.221.85 (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What route did the driver take to get from Mansion House to Broad Street via Dalston? You can work them both in. On Magic Radio last night Jim Davis asked:

Did you put the Easter egg in the freezer last night to maximise the snap when you broke the chocolate?

2A02:C7C:3764:A900:C0B1:A53B:AF3A:4D58 (talk) 17:29, 21 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have an LNWR timetable for 1887, but presumably it was the Outer Circle route. And I have no comment on Easter eggs. --142.112.141.35 (talk) 04:24, 22 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

April 23

Ethnic or other slur?

The word Gualdo has a number of meanings in Wikipedia and Wiktionary and in the first few hits of web search, but I saw it in a context that made it sound like a slur against some group, or maybe a political faction. Nothing I found said anything about that. Can anyone explain? Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:86B1:F06:D9D0:84F6 (talk) 23:15, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What was the context? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:47, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find the post now but it was someone on the interweb saying the proposed prisoner swap between El Salvador and Venezuela[5] would create an "army of gualdos". I tried to find out what a gualdo was in that context. 2601:644:8581:75B0:86B1:F06:D9D0:84F6 (talk) 04:04, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's a misspelling. That's been known to happen on the internet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:46, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I could imagine it being a hispanicization of the name Waldo, although I fail to understand the connotations. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:42, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wild speculation, but if this is the source of the term, perhaps it implies that the exchanged prisoners, presumed to be dangerous, would thereafter be able to 'disappear into the crowd' (as in Where's Waldo?) and be hard to subsequently track and monitor. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 00:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

ah yes, Güérez Gualdo —Tamfang (talk) 00:48, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Gualdo is apparently also a Spanish word for "yellow", wihch suggested a political group or faction. Apparently the locked-up Venezuelans who Bukele proposed to swap were all members of some right-wing movement. I don't know if the idea was for the prisoners to be freed, rather than just repatriated to their own country's jails. 2601:644:8581:75B0:7F06:C593:E17C:D28B (talk) 00:12, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

April 24

Ages in Spanish

When someone at their 18th birthday party gets asked about their age, why do they say "tengo dieciocho años" (lit. "I have eighteen years") and not "yo soy dieciocho" (lit. "I am eighteen")? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 05:55, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Because that's how they say it. Spanish is not English. Also, I could argue that if they did use the "I am" construction, they might say "estoy" rather than "soy". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:44, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to go back to a variant phrasing in Latin. It's pretty futile to ask "why" other languages do things differently. It's just how they evolved. [6] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:20, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe TWO and 40bus are cousins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:08, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Repeat customers" would be a better term. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 20:38, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That much is certain. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:48, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No, they are the same person. 40TWO. That's the answer.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:39, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Some people seem to have the idea that translating one language into another can be done robotically, word by word. That is hardly ever possible. It's way more complex than that. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

When an English speaker (presumably aware of the fact that they are not a number) at their 18th birthday party gets asked about their age, why do they say, "I am eighteen"? It would make much more sense to reply with something like "I have eighteen years". All languages are weird, but some are weirder than others. ‑‑Lambiam 17:39, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In English, and other Germanic languages, it could be interpreted as a clipping of "I am eighteen years old.", which I think makes some more sense logically. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:22, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Saying "I have 18 years" sounds very odd to me. Those years are the past. I no longer have them. Actually, I never had them. They slipped away from me instant by instant. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:36, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you can still say "I have experience", which I find quite comparable. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Different languages do things in different ways, shock horror!

In Scots Gaelic, the question "How old are you – Dè 'n aois a tha thu?" would literally translate something like "How many years are to you (I think), which might seem weird to an Anglophone, but is of course entirely natural to a Gaelic speaker – which is also true of all other languages.

Language is complicated, evolves quickly, and has naturally evolved differently in different, separated settings. As others have said, "How?" is often an answerable question, "Why?" is often not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 22:41, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Unit usage questions

Question 1

Do people in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland, which are now nearly fully metric, use phrases like "A few kilometres from here", "kilometres of plain sand", "I can see kilometres away from here"? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Australia we tend to say "k's" (kays), reserving "kilometres" for more formal use. The first example, definitely. The other two, not so much. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:31, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Canada, it would be more idiomatic to use "miles" in those examples. "Kilometres" would certainly be understood, but the number of syllables makes it stilted to use in everyday speech. Matt Deres (talk) 15:52, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Question 2

Are there any expressions, proverbs or idioms mentioning a metric unit in any variety of English? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

2. Well, the second is a metric unit, but I take it not one that you're interested in here. Also, if I'm to believe the good people at Collins Dictionaries the idiom like a ton of bricks occasionally appears as like a tonne of bricks. --Antiquary (talk) 11:32, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the word second is ambiguous, When measured by atomic clocks it is indeed a metric unit, but as 1/86 400 of the mean solar day it was introduced by Al-Biruni some 1,800 years before the metric system was thought of.

Question 3

Are there any placenames in English-speaking areas which are named after metric distances, as if 100 Mile House were 100 Kilometre House? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Question 4

Do people in countries listed in Question 1 say "half a kilometre" when referring to 500 m? Do they write 1⁄2 km? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Re 4: You can find this in use by the US Army: [7]. Also, the Canadian creator of the article Mount Stephen wrote: "1⁄2 km east of Field". ‑‑Lambiam 23:38, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

IIRC, The US Army would often use the slang variant "click" for kilometer. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:56, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Usually spelled klick. Deor (talk) 14:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Canada, yes. Elementary school tried to bash into my brain that metric measures could never be referred to with fractions, but "half a kilometre" gets used often enough (when we use kilometres at all). "500 meters" sounds too precise. Matt Deres (talk) 18:21, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

April 28