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April 22

Blue Sky terms and conditions

Hello, does the Blue Sky social network terms and conditions allow to post a feed of new drafts made in Wikipedia about a particular topic - say I would like to highlight effort of a particular Wikiproject, or a developer who makes tools for wiki editing?

And what about posting feed of an ebay user with links to items they put for sale today?

Thanks Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 21:22, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Courtesy link: https://bsky.social/about/support/tos (I'm sure someone will have a legal opinion whether its allowed or not, but that's not what we do here.) 196.50.199.218 (talk) 05:04, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

@Gryllida When anyone publishes anything (inclding a draft) on Wikipedia, they are informed (directly above the "publish" button) that "By publishing changes, you agree to the Terms of Use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC BY-SA 4.0 License and the GFDL." So there should be nothing on the Blue Sky page or website that contradicts that. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:45, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

i mean not in copyright sense but in "is this allowed here" sense Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 11:33, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Context is everything. Let's be social media platform agnostic for a moment. I could conceivably post a link (on my app of choice) to YOUR user page on Wikipedia. No problem there. I've seen your page. However, if you were receiving some financial gain or promoting disinformation (or any of a 1000 reasons) I think the moderators would be all over you in a flash. What would a reasonable person do? 41.246.129.103 (talk) 18:47, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

My platform moderators would be all over me too. 41.246.129.103 (talk) 18:52, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

April 25

Which DBMS is the fastest of these three for frequent CRUD queries, MS SQL Server, MySQL or Postgres?

Ignore licensing costs. Félix An (talk) 03:13, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

I suspect this would depend heavily on your server details, exact workload, configuration, etc. Sesquilinear (talk) 05:30, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

The current version of Comparison of relational database management systems never uses the word 'fastest'. Probably for good reasons. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 21:07, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

It may depend on who does the testing, or how they do it. That said, here are some findings:

• "While more recent benchmark tests show that other RDBMSs like PostgreSQL can match or at least come close to MySQL in terms of speed, MySQL still holds a reputation as an exceedingly fast database solution."^[1]
• "If you need a highly scalable database management system that is optimized for high-speed read and write operations, MySQL or MS SQL Server may be the better choice."^[2]
• "Performance: MySQL is designed for high-performance data processing and can handle high traffic websites and applications with ease. SQL Server offers good performance but requires more system resources and hardware to achieve the same level of performance as MySQL."^[3]
• "Performance — Both SQL Server and MySQL provide the same level of performance and speed. They utilize indexes to sort data and accelerate performance and can host several databases on a single server. However, according to an analysis performed by IJARCCE, the SQL server performed better than MySQL regarding response time. Other than INSERT queries, it was consistently faster for other tests. SQL server also scales faster than MySQL."^[4]

It seems that one may tentatively conclude that among these three RDMSs, MS SQL Server and MySQL are the main contenders, and that MySQL will be faster if INSERT operations predominate amongst the CRUD.

Is there a reason for not including MonetDB^[5] in the comparison?  ​‑‑Lambiam 13:51, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

AI refusing to add singers to animated image

In Deevid.ai, I've recently tried to add Freddie Mercury to a would-be animated photo of two people and instead got some random dude added. Rewording the prompt was unsuccessful. Then I tried Pollo.ai and for some reason got the message about sensitive and harmful content. Also tried to rephrase the prompt like "add Queen's frontman" and got the same. Then I tried to add Elvis Presley, also unsuccessfully in both websites. Any idea why this is happening?

On top of that, ChatGPT, when asked to add Freddie in the background to the same photo, redrawed the entire photo in a cartoonish style, despite being clearly prompted not to retouch the rest. Brandmeister^talk 07:55, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Sounds like deepfake prevention. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:23, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

First create an image yourself that combines a photo of the late Mr. Mercury on one side with your photo of the two people on the other side. This can be done with almost any image editor. Upload it and beseech your artificial interlocutor to merge the left and right sides of the photo to a single-scene image in a specified way (photorealistic; the three people sharing the stage; the three side-by-side / one or the other more to the front / ...; ...).  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:29, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, could be a bypass. Adding Freddie manually via Photoshop looked tedious for me. Brandmeister^talk 08:31, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

April 26

If I’ve a small Smalltalk program, how do I turn it into an image ?

Simple question : let’s say for example I’ve an Hello World to a text file, I know this isn’t very smalltalkish but how do I turn the code into an image I can run ? 2A01:E0A:ACF:90B0:0:0:A03F:E788 (talk) 15:17, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Can you please clarify? I don't understand how you can "run" an image, but a screenshot will turn the code into an image. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:28, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

One of the meanings of image is "executable".  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:23, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

In smalltalk, executables are Objects that contains the memory/state of their execution  a smalltalk program always have it’s execution paused/resumed. 2A01:E0A:ACF:90B0:0:0:A03F:E788 (talk) 23:50, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

What is your OS? For example Dolphin Smalltalk claims it can produce standalone Windows executables. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 12:08, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

My ᴏꜱ is windows. 2A01:E0A:ACF:90B0:0:0:A03F:E788 (talk) 23:49, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

So Dolphin Smalltalk may be the solution.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:39, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

April 27

How are old songs available in 4K resolution on YouTube?

How are music videos released or uploaded before YouTube's July 2010 announcement of 4K support, such as Justin Bieber's "Baby" (released Feb 2010) and Mariah Carey's "Honey" (uploaded Nov 2009), now available in 4K resolution on the platform? HarryOrange (talk) 17:23, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

YouTube has actually allowed them to go back and replace the original video with a new one. Normal users can't do that, but both Carey and Bieber use Vevo, so I have to assume YouTube has offered a special method of doing that just for them. Another example of this kind of reupload taking place was with Thriller, where it was replaced with a fully remastered version from the original film reels. The official Michael Jackson site links to the original music video when it announced this in 2023, but YouTube still says that video was uploaded in October 2009. So clearly in 2023 the original video file was switched out, but the views, comments, and upload date remained. Pinguinn 🐧 06:06, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

in addition to user:Pinguinns' response, some really old music videos were recorded on film, which can be of much higher quality than digital. mgjertson (talk) (contribs) 17:34, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

April 30

If Googlers don't have access to Google AI Studio, how do they test the product?

Here is the screenshot where Googler can't access their own product i.e Google AI Studio. HarryOrange (talk) 16:52, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

There's no way to know from that screenshot if the person is a "Googler". But even if they are, like any organisation Google is perfectly capable of giving some employees access but not others. For large organisation it's probably the norm only some employees receive access of early tests of secretive project and projects where you need to have certain skills to be able to test it and offer effective feedback. Nil Einne (talk) 05:42, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

April 23

Electrocardiographic thanatography

I read in the Vatican News that the death of Pope Francis 'was confirmed through electrocardiographic thanatography.' Wiktionary says 'thanatography' means 'An account, usually written, of the death of a person.' So the death of the Pope was confirmed through an electrocardiographic account of his death. Is this more than a complicated way to say that an ECG could not detect a heartbeat? The news also said 'The cause of Pope Francis' death has been identified as a stroke, followed by a coma and irreversible cardiocirculatory collapse.' How can the doctors know the collapse was irreversible. Does this mean the doctors tried to revive him? Thank you. Hevesli (talk) 08:07, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Earlier in his hospitalization it was mentioned that his doctors were considering not resuscitating him. Since this runs afoul of Catholic teaching against euthanasia, they may have couched it in terms that avoid saying, "we let him die". Abductive (reasoning) 11:59, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

What makes you think that is the same as euthenasia? It can be quite an inhumane thing to use too much effort in keeping somebody 'alive'. My understanding is that the Catholic Church is not opposed to DNR notices. NadVolum (talk) 18:47, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

I dunno, thanatography, euthanasia; DNR is kinda a gray area; sure, heroics aren't always good; this is the pope so best not to have any complicated discussions even if the church isn't against DNR orders. Abductive (reasoning) 10:30, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

There have been 266 catholic popes most of whom died in office so this old tale could have been about any of them. When the holy father's health worsened precariously the Vatican hospital doctors declared that they could do no more and that his life's End was imminent. Fortunately the Vatican has great financial resources and a second opinion was ordered from the highest reputed, and therefore most expensive, medical specialist. Alone with the pope the specialist gently told the sick man that he also could do nothing to save him. The old pope managed to croak a few words. "I am ready to die. Bring my lawyer to my bedside." The specialist asked "I know why I am here but why do you want a lawyer also?" Pope: "Just as my Saviour I shall die between two thieves." Philvoids (talk) 10:36, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

April 25

Absolute rotation

I always imagined that (fixed) velocity was relative but acceleration (change in velocity) absolute, and that rotation was absolute being just a case of acceleration, i.e. the parts of a rotating body are constantly changing (direction of) velocity, i.e. accelerating in the general sense. However the article Absolute rotation does not even mention the word acceleration, as far as I can see. Shouldn't it? Isn't this an "easy" explanation? 2A00:23C8:7B20:CC01:CC87:EAA5:618F:BEF8 (talk) 20:45, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

It is true that the article Absolute rotation does not contain the word "acceleration". It also names Newton whose laws represent classical physics and states "From the necessary centrifugal force, one can determine one's speed of rotation;..." without explaining this use of Newton's 2nd law of motion. I agree that the article might be made more accessible if it did not assume that the general reader already knows classical Newtonian mechanics. Such improvement might be done by adding explanation as you suggest or by appropriate links to other articles. The place to propose your changes is Talk:Absolute_rotation. Philvoids (talk) 13:05, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Newtonian mechanic's accelerations are relative though, for the Galilean transformations preserve distances and time intervals, but, like the Lorentz transformations, these transformations do not preserve velocities and all accelerations. For example, consider a shipmate waving hello from a ship's bow to a beachcomber as their ship sails along the coastline and then the mate sprints to the ship's stern to wave goodbye. With respect to the ship's deck our mate first accelerated then decelerated, but from the stationary shore's reference frame they first decelerated to a slower speed and then accelerated (unless the ship slowed too) to match the ship's speed again. In short, all motion depends on reference frames, and this was true even in Newton's time when physicists speculated that motion could also be intrinsic and absolute, i.e. with respect to an absolute ether (e.g. Aether theories). Modocc (talk) 22:28, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Graphical solution to conservation of linear momentum problems

Graphical solution to an example conservation of linear momentum problem:
1. A 3 g ball moving south at 2 m/s collides with a 2 g ball moving northeast at √8 m/s. If the 2 g ball reverses course at half its initial speed, how is the 3 g ball deflected? If instead the collision were perfectly inelastic, how do the balls move?
2. Vectors representing each momentum is drawn by multiplying each mass and velocity, keeping the resultant momentum before and after the collision the same.
3. Dividing the magnitude of the vector by its mass gives the desired velocity: 2 m/s eastwards. A perfectly inelastic collision would make the balls move together as a 5 g mass in the direction of the resultant dashed purple arrow at 2√5/5 m/s.

I found a technique to solve conservation of linear momentum problems by drawing a diagram, as illustrated.

If the collision were instead elastic i.e. kinetic energy is conserved, is it possible to find all possible solutions graphically? Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 22:17, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is a graphical approach to solving for area (ie v^2), I've never seen one. Greglocock (talk) 00:30, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Thales's theorem

Can one conclude that if the two balls had the same mass m, one could use Thales's theorem to state that if AC is the resultant vector in the diagram, the constituent vectors are AB and BC for any B on the circle, so that |AB|² + |BC|² = |AC|² to conserve kinetic energy i.e. ½mv₁² + ½mv₂² = constant? Cheers, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 12:12, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

If the balls have the same mass, then isn't the solution quite simple for perfectly elastic collision? Velocity components along the line between the two centres swapped between the balls, and perpendicular components unchanged. (Someone please correct if this is wrong!) With balls of different mass, the solution algebraically most probably involves some multiplications, additions and divisions, all of which can in theory be done "graphically" using ruler and compass, but of course it could get very messy in practice. A neat graphical solution is a bigger ask. 2A00:23C8:7B20:CC01:DCDC:39AB:FED1:9A1B (talk) 18:27, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

You're right, thanks. I hadn't considered it. cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 10:51, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

April 28

Identifying a tulip

Anyone know what this is? It's quite striking. It seems to be a tulip of some kind, but I don't know what. Google says it's a Tulipa hungarica, but it doesn't look all that similar to my untrained eye. Would like to identify it correctly on Commons if possible. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:44, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

When I Google "yellow tulip with red flames" I'm told it's Tulip Olympic Flame, which does appear the same. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:37, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

It's a tulip and not a Tulipa hungarica, at least not a pure one; note the rounded tepals and the red flames. There are many species of tulips, many hybrids and countless cultivars, some of which managed to escape into the wild. To identify a particular species or, in case of a hybrid, combination of species, one may need a genetic study. I suspect this is some cultivar; one possibility has been mentioned above.

The flames may be from genetics (and usually are in cultivars), but can also be caused by a viral infection. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:12, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

The same tulip is available at J Parkers in the UK, they call it Tulip 'Flaming Sun', https://www.jparkers.co.uk/tulip-flaming-sun-1112cm-collection-1 Stanleykswong (talk) 05:30, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I just spent 15 minutes looking at tulip images. To me, your photo is of the "Fire Wing Tulip" which is thought to be part of the Tulipa Darwin Hybrid Group or Tulipa Triumph Group (both of those have categories on Commons). Olympic Flame is also part of the Tulipa Darwin Hybrid, but your tulips don't look like Olympic Flame. Viriditas (talk) 02:28, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Interesting. Fire Wing does look similar. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:10, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I was surprised to learn that Fire Wing is new, and was only recently created in the early 2000s. Some of the Fire Wing images are different and don't look like yours, while others do, so I think the jury is still out. Given that Olympic Flame and Fire Wing may both trace to the Tulipa Darwin Hybrid Group, I wonder if that is something you can go on to look further. The last time I grew tulips was in 1996. I bought a huge bag of bulbs from Costco, who had at that time received a direct shipment from the Netherlands. Viriditas (talk) 00:14, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

These tulips were most likely planted by a professional who had access to rare cultivars, which unfortunately does complicate the issue. He's no longer available, but there are a lot of pretty flowers in the area. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:26, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

"Fire Wings tulip" is similar in appearance to "Flaming Sun tulip", but has more pointed petals. Stanleykswong (talk) 07:05, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

April 30

Baa baa choo choo

What was the maximum speed of one of these "little sheep" while pulling a train of 400 tons? I was only able to find the maximum speed when travelling light (50-55 km/h) -- by how much would a 400-ton train (such as a typical armored train from that era) slow it down? 2601:646:8082:BA0:D86C:E2FE:4764:1AB0 (talk) 03:19, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

The Russian Wikipedia gives the traction as 8700—9500 kgf. At which speed does rolling resistance + drag of a typical 400-ton train equal about 9000 kgf? (Are these metric tons?) I bet this is an order of magnitude higher than 50–55 km/h, so my best guess is that it takes 15 to 30 minutes for the train to come up to maximum speed, but that speed would still be in the 50–55 km/h range.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:47, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

At 1.85 square metres of grate area and a somewhat realistic efficiency, I guesstimate that its sustained power is no more than about 100 to 150 kilowatts. With the rolling resistance of a 400 tonne train, that's maybe 40 km/h. But with the cut-off wide open for more traction, efficiency drops. Could be interesting to look into, but I've no time right now. PiusImpavidus (talk) 16:19, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

The Russian Wikipedia gives the power as 550—720 hp, which amounts to about 400—530 kW.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:27, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

It was a very rough guesstimate. In any case, it serves to demonstrate that it's most likely limited by sustained power, not by traction. At 85 kN traction, 400 kW power is reached at only 17 km/h.

All versions appear to have had the same firebox, so differences in sustained power can only be caused by differences in efficiency. And the slower you go, the more traction you need to reach maximum power, so a later cut-off, leading to less efficiency and less power. The 400 to 530 kW figure may have been measured using a train of less than 400 tonnes, giving more power. Although not too light a train, as power would normally mean drawbar power, which gets less if the train is too light and a larger fraction of the power is wasted on moving the loco itself.

To get an accurate answer, we need detailed performance data on these locomotives, and considering that steam locomotive design was often more art than engineering, such data may never have been collected. Absent that, any number between 30 and 45 km/h sounds totally believable to me. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:00, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

May 1

Why don't humans (usually) ride rhinoceri?

I know it's been done occasionally (there are photos if you Google it), but why is it that rhinos are generally considered unsuitable to use as mounts, while elephants have been ridden for centuries? 146.200.107.90 (talk) 00:53, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Indian elephants are domesticated. African elephants, as well as rhinos and hippos, are wild and dangerous. (Aside: There's more than one plural for rhinoceros, but rhinoceri is not on the list.[6]) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:04, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Similarly, humans have been riding horses for about 6000 years. Humans do not regularly ride zebras despite their similarity in form and genetics to horses. Zebras cannot be domesticated despite many attempts. Some have been tamed enough to pull carts but not to ride. 02:16, 1 May 2025 (UTC) -- Cullen328

I saw something about zebras not too long ago. I think it said that in addition to being wild and ornery, their backs are not strong enough to support riders. As I recall, when they did a movie about Sheena or some such, the "zebra" she rode on was actually a regular horse painted with zebra stripes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:29, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Maybe it's because it's difficult to get glasses or contact lenses for rhinos. I have never seen one in an optician's office, although I need a new prescription so I might have missed them. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:53, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Especially if they're suffering from a rhinovirus. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:19, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Wild horses aren't very suited to riding either. People invented chariots before cavalry, not only because it took a while to develop proper saddles and stirrups, but also to breed the right horse breeds. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:02, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Fwiw, Google images has several photos of people riding zebras. So it can be done. Occasionally, I guess. 146.200.107.90 (talk) 13:15, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Zebra says: "In the early 20th century, German colonial officers in East Africa tried to use zebras for both driving and riding, with limited success." Martinevans123 (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Didn't Hannibal and his guys famously ride African elephants across the Alps? 146.200.107.90 (talk) 13:17, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

He used a different species, North African elephant, which is now extinct. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:48, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Did the Romans wipe them out? —Tamfang (talk) 19:24, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

According to the article, Yes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:01, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Rhinos are considered the 4th most ferocious animals in the world (right after the African elephant, the African killer bee -- WTF, no article?! -- and the sun bear, in that order), so this is probably the reason why. 2601:646:8082:BA0:F051:2F1F:9C50:8350 (talk) 10:20, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

IP editor. I think you want the Africanized bee article. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:46, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Riding African killer bees might be tricky, but probably ecologically sound. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

The rhinoceros doesn't even make it to this list [7]. NadVolum (talk) 11:40, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Taming and domesticating are different concepts. When taming an animal, humans change their behaviour to make them more willing to cooperate with humans. When domesticating an organism (not necessarily an animal), its genetics are changed to make them more suited to what humans want to do with them. Arguably, elephants have been tamed, but not domesticated (tame working elephants are usually female and impregnated by wild males, so genetically they're still wild) and silkworms have been domesticated, but not tamed. Any species that can be bred in captivity can be domesticated, but not necessarily tamed. Social animals, like elephants, horses, buffalos and wolves, are usually easier to tame than solitary animals like rhinos, but that's not a very hard rule. Smarter animals also tend to be easier to tame, as they have more learned and less instinctive behaviour. Animals that have been tamed are easier to domesticate (as one can handle them in captivity), animals that have been domesticated can be easier to tame (after selective breeding to make them more cooperative) and provide higher rewards after taming (as they can do more useful jobs).

Some issues with riding rhinos appear to be:

• As a solitary animal, it may be harder to tame.
• They are dangerous. When taming an animal, most people prefer one that's less likely to kill them.
• Rhinos procreate slowly and need a huge pasture, making selective breeding expensive.
• Like elephants, they are too large to be efficient people movers, limiting their use to moving goods and VIPs.

PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:58, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Year of the Elephant. 2A02:C7C:F0EC:ED00:B968:4A6C:C17D:3311 (talk) 15:27, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Indian Rhinoceroses have been killing people rather frequently: Sauntering on streets and grazing on lawns: what happens when rhinos move into town? Modocc (talk) 00:04, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Meta-pedantic peeve: When you use a pedantic plural, make sure you actually get it right. Without looking it up, I'm pretty sure the word you want is rhinocerontes. Or, you know, just rhinoceroses is also fine. --Trovatore (talk) 19:15, 1 May 2025 (UTC) UPDATE: Looked it up and I can't find rhinocerontes; closest is Spanish rinocerontes without the h. Extrapolating from the ancient Greek it looks like it could maybe be rhinocerata, given that κέρᾰτᾰ is the nominative and accusative plural of κέρᾰς, "horn". --Trovatore (talk) 19:48, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

The Ancient Greek plural is ῥινοκέρωτες, not *ῥινοκέροντες or *ῥινοκέρατα. Wiktionary lists rhinocerotes, coming to us via Latin from Greek, labeling it as "now rare".  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:08, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Its plural is rhinoceroses according to Google's AI [8] and rhinoceri places a distant second in occurrences. [9] Modocc (talk) 22:34, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks Lambiam and Modocc; good info. I still think if you're going to go for pedantic and say rhinoceri, you might as well go all the way to diatopically/diachronically correct and say rhinocerotes. --Trovatore (talk) 02:59, 2 May 2025 (UTC) For avoidance of doubt, presumably pronounced /raɪnɔːsɛroʊtiːz/, rye-naw-seh-ROTE-eez. --Trovatore (talk) 03:10, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Given that ceros ≠ κέρᾰς, I would not bet on κέρᾰτᾰ. I'd have guessed ceroi.

At least OP did not go with cerii. —Tamfang (talk) 19:27, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Ride 'em cowboy! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:39, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

May 2

Newton

Whence comes this misconception that the apple fell on Isaac Newton's head when he first got the idea about the law of gravitation? Anyone know the source of the confusion? 2601:646:8082:BA0:84C8:522A:EF41:5D (talk) 05:31, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

The oldest recorded source may be a letter by Euler, dated 3rd September 1760. In translation:

This great English philoſopher and geometrician, happening one day to be lying under an apple-tree, an apple fell upon his head, and ſuggested to him a multitude of reflections.^[10]

If the story of a falling apple being a source of inspiration is true at all, we cannot be certain that said apple did not actually land on the great philosopher's noggin. In Voltaire's poem, Newton saw the apple falling, but neither Conduitt's nor Stukeley's account (see Isaac Newton's apple tree § The apple incident) states that the observation was visual. Conduitt writes that the apple landed "on the ground", but this may have been his assumption if Newton, regaling others of his inspiration story, left the somewhat ignominious landing site unspecified.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:09, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks! So, probably a case of Chinese whispers about the incident, then? 2601:646:8082:BA0:8029:3AF8:59DC:7A79 (talk) 12:04, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

It makes for a more colorful story if it literally hit him on the head, rather than just metaphorically. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:40, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Black five

Is it true that on a Stanier Black Five, when running flat-out, the boiler could actually boil the water faster than the injector could pump it in? I've done the calculations for the maximum steaming rate earlier today (based on the boiler being able to make just enough steam to supply the cylinders at 55 mph with full throttle and 15% cutoff), and by my calculations the boiler can vaporize a maximum of 10.2 gallons of water per minute -- is this an accurate estimate, and if so, is it more than the maximum flow rate through the injector? 2601:646:8082:BA0:79DE:B608:5A9E:D281 (talk) 06:18, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm no specialist on the Stanier Black Five, but since nobody answered within 24 hour...

With such cylinder dimensions and at 15% cut-off, it uses 18.5 litres of high-pressure steam per stroke. At 55 mph (one Black Five reached 96 mph, but this may have been on the downhill), such wheels and 4 strokes per revolution, that's 17 strokes per second. Combined, that's 317 litres of steam per second. I don't know the density of that steam (because I don't know the temperature after the superheater), but I suppose something like 3–5 grammes per litre, so that's somewhere around a kilogramme per second. Your 10.2 gallons per minute equals 765 grammes per second (assuming those are Imperial gallons, it's after all a British locomotive; your IP location, time of posting and spelling suggest however that your gallons may be smaller), so that's close. With the given grate area, this is more or less what's expected. So yes, your estimate appears reasonably accurate.

Now keep in mind (you probably know this, but I'll mention it anyway) that with steam locomotives there's a big difference between sustained power and peak power; sustained steam use and peak steam use. You can extract a huge amount of power and steam out of the boiler by letting water level, temperature and pressure drop, much more than the fire and injectors can provide. This is nice, as trains need more peak power than sustained power, and explains why big firetube boilers are good, despite being slow to bring up to working pressure. I suppose the question is about sustained steam generation.

Having a firebox that can heat water from room temperature (or a bit hotter, assuming a pre-heater) to 200°C and then boil it faster than your injector can provide this water has some advantages. There's a faster cold start and peak power can be sustained longer, as pressure drops less fast. The cost is a faster drop in water level. Having oversized injectors also has an advantage: you can quickly fill the boiler, at the expense of a pressure drop, which may be good when cresting a summit. On the descent, you don't need boiler pressure, but you do need high water level to keep the crown sheet, now at the high end of the boiler, covered. I suspect engineers (=the people designing them) typically aimed to have the injectors somewhat oversized compared to the grate, also because injectors are cheap compared to grate area. Less than optimal designs were common though, as engineers often worked more on experience and educated guesses than on science.

I don't know about the injectors on the Stanier Black Five.

Most locomotives had two injectors. On express locos, often one was powered by exhaust steam (after the cylinders, before the blast pipe, there was enough pressure left) and running whenever the loco was moving. The other was powered by steam directly from the boiler and used only when more water was needed. The exhaust injector, working on lower pressure steam, would have less capacity than the live injector, even more so at short cut-off. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:13, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Looking for an old wiki article on Mechanical Engineering Mathematics of Connected Bodies

Around the late 2010s decade or maybe early 2020s, I came across a Wikipedia article about the mechanical engineering mathematics of connected bodies (by something like a string, for example). I do not remember the title of the article, but it had a parenthesis term at the end of its title, like (mechanics) or (engineering) or (kinetics) or , but I don't remember the word exactly.

The article may have been similar to the articles "Dynamics (mechanics)" or "Linkage (mechanical)" or "Tension (physics)", except it was about a very specific topic. The article may have been related to categories like "Category:Mechanics" or "Category:Dynamics (mechanics)".

The article has either been deleted, renamed or changed so much that I no longer recognize it. I was interested in it because it seemed like it could be relevant to a topic I am studying, the n-body problem.

If you know the topic that I am talking about, please let me know. Cerebrality (talk) 12:42, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

@Cerebrality AI is getting better. I asked MS Bing "what is the wikipedia article about mechanical engineering mathematics of connected bodies?" and it said Kinematic chain. I hope that's it! Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for contribution. Unfortunately, "kinematic chain" is not the article I was looking for. Cerebrality (talk) 00:30, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps Dynamic substructuring? The Udwadia–Kalaba formulation can also be used to derive the equations of motion of a system of connected bodies, but I'm not sure this can be used for bodies connected by strings.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:06, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for contribution. Unfortunately, while interesting, this is not the article I was looking for. Cerebrality (talk) 14:06, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

May 3

relativistic projectile

I'm reading a story in which (among other things) someone is trying to build a gun that shoots 1.5kg iron slugs (5cm diameter) at 60% of the speed of light, for use in space combat.

1) How do I calculate the kinetic energy of the slug? Do I just use $E/{\sqrt {1-0.6^{2}}}=E/0.8=1.25E$ where E is the Newtonian approximation? I think that is about as much energy as a 7MT nuclear bomb, if that matters.

2) What happens if the slug actually hits a spaceship? Would it most likely just punch a hole all the way through, without slowing down much? Assuming a large enough ship to self-seal around the holes, is that all that effective a weapon? I.e. the ship is USS Enterprise size or larger.

Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:3DAF:465A:7AA1:65A0 (talk) 04:04, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

The article Railgun may be helpful.-Gadfium (talk) 04:30, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

The total energy is ${\frac {mc^{2}}{\sqrt {1-{\frac {v^{2}}{c^{2}}}}}}$. Subtract from it the rest energy $mc^{2}$. See kinetic energy (there is a section on the relativistic generalization). Icek~enwiki (talk) 06:12, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Using the Lorentz factor

$\gamma ={\frac {1}{\sqrt {1-{\frac {v^{2}}{c^{2}}}}}},$

this difference can be written compactly as $E_{\text{kin}}=(\gamma -1)\,mc^{2}.$

When $v=0.6\,c,$ we have $\gamma -1=0.25.$ The energy required to get the projectile up to speed is at least equal to the kinetic energy it gains, about 33.7 PJ. For comparison, the energy released by the Trinity nuclear test was about 0.1 PJ. BTW, the material composition of the slug is immaterial; it might as well be a canister of elderberry preserve.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:39, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

That would depend on the spaceship. Is the hull made of unobtanium? Are there shields of some sort? Clarityfiend (talk) 11:07, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

At this speed each iron nucleus will have energy of about 15 GeV, which will absorbed by the material the hull is made of. This with result into fireball of high temperature plasma exploding inside the ship. Ruslik_Zero 20:07, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, will it, though? This isn't a single nucleus; it's a big ol' hunk o' metal. The spaceship atoms in the way of the slug atoms are going to be getting out of the way in a hurry. How much they interact with the rear portion of the slug strikes me as a fairly difficult simulation problem that depends on a lot of details that haven't been specified, but I can imagine a fair portion of the energy being carried out the other side of the spaceship, still as kinetic energy.

I certainly agree that it isn't going to be good for the spaceship, but if the question is whether we're wasting energy that isn't going into the kill, I don't think we can answer that with the information given. --Trovatore (talk) 20:27, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. Yes the ships have deflector shields that use antigravity generators of some kind, which is why such fast projectiles are needed. The shields can handle the impacts at 0.1c which is why they are working on getting the speed up to 0.6c. If the defector shield means the slug's energy is transferred to the shield though, that's probably worse than just punching a hole in the ship and coming out the other side. 2601:644:8581:75B0:C710:F116:861:28C5 (talk) 09:30, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, I wonder whether the articles Stopping power and Terminal ballistics might be of any use to answer your question? 2601:646:8082:BA0:C887:6F01:C269:367F (talk) 13:07, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Why is GP-A not on File:Time_Dilation_vs_Orbital_Height.png total time dilation curve?

(CC:@Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog:)

Time dilation as a function of orbital height relative to a stationary observer on Earth

In the attached thumbnail, GP-A which is presumably Gravity Probe A is placed on the gravitaional time dilation graph instead of the total time dilation one like the others. Is there a reason for it? Thanks, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 22:33, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

GP-A did not orbit. It was launched nearly vertically, reached 10,000 km, and came back down. —Amble (talk) 02:54, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. That explains it. Cheers, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 19:13, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

April 24

Can a math PhD who never took a course in physics...

Solve a baseball bat velocity problem? You give them the mass of the bat and mass of the ball, and velocity of each, can they solve how far the baseball travels?

Also, in the math department, is there a course that covers quantum mechanics? Specifically stuff like Schrodinger's equations. Thanks. 24.136.10.82 (talk) 13:07, 24 April 2025 (UTC).

We have an article on Mathematical physics which I think covers what you're talking about. As for the bat and ball problem, you'd probably have to know the elasticity of the collision; this is the percentage of energy lost in the interaction. If completely inelastic then the ball just sticks to the bat and doesn't go anywhere, but if completely elastic then the ball will bounce off the bat with no loss in energy. Reality is always somewhere in between and depends on the materials the bat and ball are made of. --RDBury (talk) 16:12, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

To solve such baseball problems, you also have to apply Newton's laws of motion, which are taught in physics courses, but typically not in maths courses or maths textbooks – although there is a fair chance of students having encountered these laws in examples and exercises. A hypothetical mathematician completely unaware of these laws cannot solve such problems, regardless of their mathematical prowess.

From a pure mathematician's perspective, the only difference between mathematical physics and other fields of mathematics is the applicability of the mathematical models to physics problems, which is extrinsic to the mathematical aspects.  ​‑‑Lambiam 16:37, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I'd say the basic laws of motion and Newton's law of universal gravity should both be covered in high school in most modern education systems. Elastic/inelastic collisions and air resistance less so. So it depends on how exact an answer you want. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:34, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

How to recover nonces from ECDSA signatures given the private key ?

Given :

    R: 1699b85f9fd4e3c6234bc0b3378a965a08ea4f76b5359998dec6123c20ff7b64
    S: 6db258553ff34e7928d877a93d219dfff683bdd6de8c54cbebafe028198285eb
    message hash: 5e39fb8e7f5ec05eab86c4f2618c5c96fb3c8c7ff38f37224084fffe50aaaeb0

I tried 0x6db258553ff34e7928d877a93d219dfff683bdd6de8c54cbebafe028198285eb*Mod(-(0x5e39fb8e7f5ec05eab86c4f2618c5c96fb3c8c7ff38f37224084fffe50aaaeb0+0x1c533b6bb7f0804e09960225e44877ac*0x1699b85f9fd4e3c6234bc0b3378a965a08ea4f76b5359998dec6123c20ff7b64),0xfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffefffffc2f) which gives an incorrect result in Pari/ɢᴘ while the pubkey recovered from the signature match the $1c533b6bb7f0804e09960225e44877ac$ private key. 2A01:E0A:ACF:90B0:0:0:A03F:E788 (talk) 21:32, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

April 28

Must every symmetric/transitive relation be homogeneous, or it may also be heterogeneous?

In other words:

1. For given (disjoint) sets $X,Y,$ is it accepted to call a given relation R "symmetric", when: for all $x\in X,y\in Y,$ if $xRy$ then $yRx?$

2. For given (disjoint) sets $X,Y,Z,$ is it accepted to call a given relation R "transitive", when: for all $x\in X,y\in Y,z\in Z,$ if $xRy$ and $yRz$ then $xRz?$

However, if the term "symmetric/transitive" is not accepted for these heterogeneous relations, then do you have in mind a better name to describe them? HOTmag (talk) 10:06, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

1. Unless $R$ is a relation between $X\sqcup Y$ and $X\sqcup Y$, the consequent $yRx$ of item 1 does not make much sense. The statement "for all $x\in X,y\in Y,$ if $xRy$ then $yRx$" by itself normally already implies that $R$ is homogeneous.

2. This is more complicated. Here relation $R$ is apparently between $X\sqcup Y$ and $Y\sqcup Z,$ so it is not necessarily homogeneous. There is no higher mathematical authority ruling which abuses of language are condoned and which are proscribed. Personally, I would have no qualms declaring my non-homogeneous relation satisfying this condition to be transitive, but I can give no guarantee that this might not offend some lesser god. However, it may be wise to make the reader aware of the fact that the situation is not quite normal. A transitive homogeneous relation $R$ has the property that $R^{2}\subseteq R,$ which one can even use as the definition of transitivity, but for a heterogeneous relation this makes no sense.  ​‑‑Lambiam 14:54, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. HOTmag (talk) 17:50, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

April 29

Density of Ulam numbers

Ulam numbers empirically seem to have a density of about 0.07. However, this paper in ArXiv says that they have zero density. I can't find that it has been published anywhere. What is the status of the density of Ulam numbers? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 02:13, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

I guess it is open. Presumably, the paper was submitted to a journal. When the referees find holes in a purported proof, this is generally not made public, so we may simply not hear more about this. The paper on arXiv was originally submitted in 2020, but by now it has reached version 11, from 27 August 2023. The author identifies himself as "an ardent theory builder with very outlandish mathematical ideas drawn from intuition".^[11] Five years ago, a co-author of his on several papers^[12] published a paper "An Elementary Proof of the Twin Prime Conjecture",^[13] yet the consensus among number theorists appears to be this problem is also still open. The proof was published in a rather unknown journal. One would think the author submitted such an important result first to prestigious journals in number theory, so this strongly suggests it was rejected by these.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:58, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

The Ulam number sequence in OEIS (OEIS:A002858) also doesn't seem to mention anything about an acceptance of the density 0 proof; rather, it just indicates that Stanisław Ulam himself believed the density to be 0, while empirical evidence suggests a density around 0.074. GalacticShoe (talk) 13:11, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Based on the numbers up to 10¹², they appear to have a positive density. I got this data from Exploring the Beauty of Fascinating Numbers, by Shyam S. Gupta. The y-axis is density and the x-axis is the log₁₀ of the upper value.

10^4 to 10^12

10^6 to 10^12

10^8 to 10^12

Out to 10¹² it behaves as if the density is converging to about 0.074.... Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:34, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

The author is some flavor of crank, see [14] and Talk:Prime-counting function#Prime index function 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:11, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

I don't see which one you are talking about. Is it the one who wrote that ArXiv article about Ulam numbers having zero density? Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 05:04, 5 May 2025 (UTC) -- oh, Theophilus Agama. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 05:05, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 10:10, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

April 22

A new Pope's name, and its translations(s)

(a little related to previous question [[15]] )

By what method is the *Official* translation of a new Pope's regnal name made public?

For Franciscus, the jump to Francis (en)/Franscisco (es)/Francesco (it) ... was quite trivial due to it being a Saint's name, but were some future pope to choose an adjectival name:

Announcement:"...qui sibi nomen imposuit Humilis"
CNN: "Cardinal X named as Pope Humble"
BBC: "Cardinal Y becomes Pope Common"
AP: "Cardinal Z becomes Pope Lowly!"

thoughts..? -Bogger (talk) 10:28, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

I might have to eat my words in a few weeks, but I'd imagine that the probability is negligible of the new Pope choosing a name that is neither the name of a previous Pope nor the name of a well-known Saint, and in either case there will already be a standard version in each language. (By the way, there is a Saint Humilis; he appears to be known either by that name (including in English) or by a translated variant (e.g, Umile in Italian).) Proteus (Talk) 10:51, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

The Holy See is/has a de facto government that has been a player in international politics for more than a thousand years. Pretty sure its diplomatic arm has this sort of thing routinely covered, and probably issues preferred translations amongst other details of the new incumbent in all relevant languages via its embassies to governments and news organisations, as well as disseminating them via its clerical heirarchy to its own adherents. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 10:56, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

We probably won't get another Pope Joan (?) Martinevans123 (talk) 11:00, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

The vast majority of previously used names are extremely unlikely now, I suspect: I doubt we'll be celebrating the election of Pope Hyginus II or Pope Adeodatus III any time soon. Pope Peter II can also be ruled out due to tradition. Other than the novelty of Francis, you have to go back more than 100 years to find a Pope not called John, Paul, Benedict or Pius (or some combination of those, in the case of the two John Pauls). Proteus (Talk) 11:17, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

No George or Ringo then? DuncanHill (talk) 11:33, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

There was a Saint George, but no Saint Ringo. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:48, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Maybe no Pope Richard, but plenty of Saint Richards! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:47, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Plenty of Pope Alexanders, though. Proteus (Talk) 14:00, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

"Common" or "Lowly" strike me as mistranslations. Humilis is an adjectival form of one of the Virtues, all of which must already have well-established translations. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

It brings new meaning to what I've always thought was a ridiculous and self-defeating expression: "I'm humbled by this award/prize/recognition". The essence of humility means that the absolutely last thing you ever do is tell the world how humble you are. But now we're contemplating the prospect of a Pope Humble. It can only mean the imminent end of the world. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:07, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm reminded of the Humble Oil company, which was a Texas company for a number of decades until they were acquired by the company that became Exxon. It's fair to say they are no longer Humble. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:37, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

"Humble" would arguably be no more odd (in terms of its innate meaning) than Benedict (blessed), Clement (merciful), Pius or Innocent (both self-explanatory), amongst others. Presumably such names are intended to indicate a quality which the Pope in question hopes to live up to and inspire, rather than to boast of an already-established character trait. Of course, the principal reason is often instead an intention to hark back to or honour previous holders and/or Saints of the same name (e.g. from our article on Pope Benedict XVI: "Benedict XVI chose his papal name, which comes from the Latin word meaning "the blessed", in honour of both Benedict XV and Benedict of Nursia"); I have no idea if Saint Humilis would be considered worthy of such commemoration. Proteus (Talk) 10:09, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

April 23

Funny Half Hour

Is there any information about the 1970s UK joke/comic book Funny Half Hour? Thanks. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 08:01, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

See [16]. 2A00:23C7:E53F:2901:2C58:BF28:3376:7BBB (talk) 09:58, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. I now see that it is mentioned at Thorpe & Porter. It was one of its most successful publications of the 1970s. Perhaps it deserves its own article. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:22, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Pall Mall Gazette author

Article from the Pall Mall Gazette on Salvation Army meals in the East End of London

AN article in the 10 March 1888 edition of said journal is signed "M. H. G. D." Does anyone know who this is? All the best: Rich Farmbrough 12:52, 23 April 2025 (UTC).

FWIW, Google's AI Overview states (without any source and unaccompanied by any actual hits), that this was John Morley, The Pall Mall Gazette's editor from 1880 to 1883 and a prolific writer on politics and political history. However, without corroboration this AI assertion is useless – to a previous, differently worded query it baldly stated that M.H.G.D. was Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley!

The only note of plausibility in the suggestion is that Morley had been elected as Liberal Member of Parliament (MP) for Newcastle upon Tyne at a by-election in February 1883 (hence his resigning the editorial post) and may not have wished the article to appear under his own name. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 19:46, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

@Rich Farmbrough: It might help us to know a little more about the article, eg title, subject, etc. DuncanHill (talk) 19:50, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

That newspaper turns up in Newspapers.com, a pay site. That mysterious signature appears on page 11, under an article about feeding the poor: "A meal for a farthing. A social salvation experiment in the east end." No immediate indication of who or what that MHGD represents. There's an article on an earlier page signed by X.Y.Z. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:25, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Part C of The Wellesley Index to Victorian Periodicals, 1824-1900 is probably the place to find this if it's known. Unfortunately volumes 2-5 are no longer available at archive. Someone at WP:RX might have access but i'm having trouble finding which volume if any covers Pall Mall GazettePall Mall Budget (the index only covers weeklies and quarterlies, but the article was apparently included in the weekly[17].) fiveby(zero) 00:53, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

British Library says:

This item is available on an open shelf in one of our St Pancras Reading Rooms

Shelfmarks

YA.1996.b.6474.

2785.csa.1.

Other copies of this item are stored on our site in Yorkshire. Please allow 2 working days for delivery to our St Pancras Reading Rooms.

vol. 4 m06/.16124

vol. 2 Q050.9034 *1*

vol. 5 m06/.16125

vol. 2 m06/.16122

vol. 1 m06/.16127

vol. 1 Q050.9034 *1*

vol. 3 m06/.16123

vol. 3 79/18932

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:79DF:1:9822:D15B:FE61:B4DB (talk) 08:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)LTA. Dekimasuよ! 22:41, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

The article in question has been in plain sight above as an oversize thumbnail since 21:33, 23 April 2025 (UTC), so there is no need to go to a physical library. It reads like an infomercial for the (just so named) Salvation Army. The editor at the time of the Pall Mall Gazette, W. T. Stead, was an activist supporter of the Salvation Army.^[18] He can have commissioned one of his journalists to write the piece, if he did not pen it himself. His predecessor Morley expressed, as MP, admiration of William Booth as a person^[19] but not directly of the Salvation Army.  ​‑‑Lambiam 18:38, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I think what was being suggested was using a physical library to look it up in The Wellesley Index to Victorian Periodicals, 1824-1900, to see if that gives the author. DuncanHill (talk) 18:50, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Pall Mall Gazette is not among the periodicals indexed.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:39, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

I thought it was worth a bit of effort and managed to get a peak at vol 5 of Wellesley. Sadly no D., M. H. G. Is listed. I do have the 7 vol Dictionary of anonymous and pseudonymous English literature to unwrap, but I doubt it will help. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 23:17, 27 April 2025 (UTC).

Jakarta, city versus metropolitan area

Reading Jakarta and Jakarta metropolitan area, I'm slightly uncertain about the status of the city. The metropolitan area article notes that the city's share of the metropolitan area's population has declined significantly since 1990. Is that primarily because nearby areas of adjacent provinces have grown much faster, or has the city also become less populous and/or shrunk in area? Also, since it's a "Special Capital Region" with "a status equivalent to that of a province", I'm guessing that its boundaries can't change without some action of the central government, comparable to Washington DC or Canberra. Is that true, or have I misunderstood things? I don't understand that much about Indonesian government. Nyttend (talk) 20:35, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

Indonesia is divided into provinces, then into cities/regencies. Jakarta (aka Special Capital Region of Jakarta) is province-level, and has five cities and one regency within it. The Jakarta metropolitan area is an unofficial construct much like any metropolitan area in the world. Abductive (reasoning) 10:47, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

"I say, I say, I say. I've sent my wife to Indonesia." "Jakarta?" "No, I put her on a plane.". AYE THANG YEW! DuncanHill (talk) 17:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

What, after all, is a city? Is it a human settlement, as our article claims, or is it lines on a map? Anyway, the population of Jakarta certainly hasn't shrunk, so it's your first theory: the spreading urbanisation beyond its formal borders. It's crowded, there's a reason the government is trying to escape it. CMD (talk) 17:25, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

April 24

Bias or fact?

Is it considered bias, to change the word "Mormon" to Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, because the LDS church does not use the term "Mormon" anymore.

FYI, I am a member of the LDS church. Paul Mcartny (talk) Paul Mcartny (talk) 01:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC) 01:29, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

As I recall, Mitt Romney said the word Mormon is a "nickname". It's in common usage. And it's certainly less wordy than spelling out LDS all the time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:54, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs as I said with Clarityfreind,"...back in the 1800's, calling someone a "mormon" was a derogatory term." Paul Mcartny (talk) 13:57, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

This isn't the LDSopedia. What the church prefers (IMO a way of concealing its past from the less-educated) is not our guide. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:51, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm just saying what we call ourselves. Paul Mcartny (talk) 13:45, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

And the things I'm saying, are the facts about our religion.

@Clarityfiend, back in the 1800's, calling someone a "mormon" was a derogatory term. Paul Mcartny (talk) 13:52, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

It still is, to some outsiders. And what a given group calls themselves does not necessarily dictate Wikipedia usage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:00, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank You! Paul Mcartny (talk) 14:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

And by the way, do they no longer call their unique text "The Book of Mormon"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:35, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

There is a person, in the ancient American Continent named Mormon who wrote the book so we call it The Book of Mormon. Paul Mcartny (talk) 13:41, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

The only evidence for Mormon (prophet) having existed is Words of Mormon in the Book of Mormon a religious text of the Latter Day Saint movement, published in 1830 by the movement's founder Joseph Smith who analysed the name thus: Mormon-->more + mon (Egyptian)-->more + good. A Wikipedia style guide allows appropriate use of the word Mormon to refer to Latter Day Saint movement adherents. Wikipedia's neutral policy can report shared beliefs (Creed) of religious communities including branches of the LDS when identified as such, but prohibits claiming a particular or disputed doctrine, such as prophet Mormon existed, as a verified fact. Philvoids (talk) 23:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Ok. Can I still write LDS for editing, It is also easier to write than 'Mormonism'. Paul Mcartny (talk) 00:03, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

FYI, there is some geographical and historical evidence that the events in The Book Of Mormon did happen. Paul Mcartny (talk) 00:07, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

It could be interesting to see such evidence. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:25, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I could do with a good laugh. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 10:41, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

>:( Paul Mcartny (talk) 13:09, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Most everyone thinks their religion is the "right" one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:57, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

the >:( face was directed at 94.194.109.80 Paul Mcartny (talk) 15:14, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Yup. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:29, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs 2000 years ago, around the time Christ was crucified, there was a volcano that erupted in the Yucatán Peninsula called the El Chichón volcano. In the book of Mormon, when Christ was crucified, the Nephites were stuck for 3 days in darkness. It was so dark that not even candles could be lit. (most likely because the ash from El Chichón.) Paul Mcartny (talk) 13:23, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

There is definitely an El Chichón volcano there, though the article only lists relatively recent eruptions. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:57, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

I did a little more internet digging and found out I got the wrong volcano. the real volcano was Xitle. here is a link

[20] Paul Mcartny (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

If not, I will do more digging. Paul Mcartny (talk) 15:25, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

The eruption of Xitle would be more than 200 years after the crucifixion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:29, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

More digging I guess Paul Mcartny (talk) 17:10, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Not that I don't appreciate your dedication, but what you are doing is akin to a "defence in depth" of your conviction. Whenever one of your dominoes of evidence falls, you are not reconsidering your position, but retreat to the next domino. Is there any observable potential evidence that would shake your believe in the literal existence of the prophet Mormon? If not, you are welcome to your religious beliefs, but arguing the position with people with a naturalistic perspective is likely to be be unproductive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:34, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Helpful mormon friends assure me that facts can be verified by applying "Moroni's Promise" expressed in Book of Moroni: "..ask God in prayer, in the name of Jesus Christ, if the things are true. And if they ask with a sincere heart, the truth of them will be made manifest through the power of the Holy Spirit." Philvoids (talk) 11:46, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

@Paul Mcartny For our policy on this sort of thing, please see WP:COMMONNAME. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you! Paul Mcartny (talk) 13:59, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Field of Fire (400 miles)

According to our article Fields of Fire (song), one of the contemporary reviews mentioned ""a nod to the homeland discernable in the repetition of a familiar Scottish folk theme in the guitar instrumental segments". What was that familiar Scottish folk theme? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:13, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm familiar with the song in question, but rather less familiar with Scottish folk songs. What I do remember reading in contemporary reviews is that the introductory guitar section has more than a passing similarity to the Guns of Navarone theme music. This being the 1980s it's probably going to be impossible to find the source on-line - I'll give it a try but no promises. Daveosaurus (talk) 00:42, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

At the time, its similarity to "Johnny Todd" was frequently commented on, but I'm not sure if that counts as a "familiar Scottish folk theme". 194.73.48.66 (talk) 12:27, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

April 25

Request: Page 1147 of Patrologia Latina Volume 198 (Peter Comestor, Historia Scholastica)

Hello,

I'm currently researching a fascinating medieval legend attributed to Peter Comestor’s Historia Scholastica, which allegedly appears in Patrologia Latina, Volume 198, page 1147. The passage reportedly explains why the Jewish ritual of circumcision is performed with iron rather than stone, based on the idea that iron “softened” to allow David’s stone to pierce Goliath’s helmet — thus earning a special honor in sacred rituals.

Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to locate this exact page in any available online source (e.g., Internet Archive, Gallica, Documenta Catholica Omnia).

Would anyone here be able to:

1. Direct me to a scanned or digitized copy of page 1147 from PL 198?
2. Or perhaps transcribe or summarize the relevant Latin text if you have access?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you very much.

---

טל ומטר (talk) 01:01, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Are you sure that it's page 1147 rather than column 1147 (which would be more usual in a PL reference)? Deor (talk) 02:07, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you@Deor It is indeed likely that it refers to column 1147. טל ומטר (talk) 06:37, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

You didn't mention Google Books though. Here's the passage you're looking for. If you ever want to find links to PL volumes patristica.net is the place to go to. --Antiquary (talk) 08:43, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you@Antiquary very much. טל ומטר (talk) 09:47, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Also accessible on the Internet Archive ([21]), with the advantage that one can zoom in further than in Google Books view.  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:07, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

By the way, these requests may be processed faster at WP:RX, their dedicated venue! Aaron Liu (talk) 13:10, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

April 26

Rabino or Ravino family the 16th and 17th centuries in Poland

While researching the turn of the 16th and 17th centuries in Poland, I came across the family name "רַבֵּינוּ" (or "Ravinu" / "Rawenu"). The correct pronunciation is unclear: Rabenu, Ravenu, or Ruwenu. This name appears only in connection with a particular author and his son. Since surnames were generally uncommon in Poland at that time, its origin is puzzling. Could this name have originated in Germany or in other Yiddish-speaking regions?

טל ומטר (talk) 21:42, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Are you sure this is a proper name? There is a Yiddish term רבינו, (Rabbeinu, "our master", "our teacher", "our rabbi"), from Hebrew רַבֵּנוּ (rabéynu, "our teacher"), from רַבִּי (rabí, "teacher") +‎ ־נוּ (-nu, "our").  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:14, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Note [b] and [v] are closely related, and pronunciation has changed one way or the other in several cases during language evolution. See Betacism. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:37, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you very much@Lambiam and thank you@Stephan Schulz. This refers to an author who identifies himself as Yaakov son of Yitzchak of the 'רבינו' family. It has nothing to do with "Rabbeinu," meaning "our revered teacher" or a well-known rabbi. His son also refers to himself in the same way. טל ומטר (talk) 11:33, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

April 27

Lincoln and Churchill dot org

There is a website https://lincolnandchurchill.org/. I always get "403 Forbidden" when I try to go to it. What is the website? Who runs it? Is anyone allowed to see it, or are we all forbidden? Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 18:43, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm able to get to it. Maybe the site only allows American IP's to get to it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:23, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Same here (I am in the US and can access). Blueboar (talk) 19:30, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

The site is run by the Lehrman Institute, which seems to have been the creation a historian named Lewis E. Lehrman. Not sure if he is considered an expert on Lincoln and Churchill… but he has published on both. Blueboar (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Ah thank you, he is Lewis Lehrman, an investment banker and Republican politician. DuncanHill (talk) 20:12, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

I am not in the US and I can access the site. Maybe they just don't allow people named Duncan? Matt Deres (talk) 15:50, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Or Alan... Alansplodge (talk) 18:24, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm in the UK and get 403 Forbidden as well. But as soon as I turn on the proxy server to an American or Canadian IP it lets me visit, but not with UK, German or Swedish IPs. Curious. —Simon Harley (Talk). 18:45, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

April 28

Archdeacons of Down

We see two consecutive archdeacons called Mant (see navbox below). Both have clerical fathers called Richard Mant, associated with Southampton. One links with Richard Mant, the other does not. It seems almost certain that the two are related, but whether brothers, cousins or uncle and nephew I can't tell. Any information? All the best: Rich Farmbrough 11:18, 28 April 2025 (UTC).

References

Our article Robert Mant says he was the son of Richard Mant, Rector of All Saints, Southampton. Our article All Saints, Southampton, says its first rector was Richard Mant, father of the Richard Mant who was born in 1776. That (second) Richard Mant was the father of Walter Mant. This would make Robert Mant the uncle of Walter Mant. I hope that makes sense. DuncanHill (talk) 12:06, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

And this page about Bishop Richard Mant mentions both "his two surviving sons – Walter Bishop Mant, (archdeacon of Connor 1832–34, and archdeacon of Down 1834–69), and the Revd Frederick Woods Mant", and "the Revd Robert M. Mant (1785–1834), the bishop’s younger brother and archdeacon of Down and Connor 1828–34". DuncanHill (talk) 12:13, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Per this and this, Robert is Walter's uncle, being a brother of his father Richard Mant. Walter took over from Robert when the former died. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 12:09, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

[Edit Conflicts] There are clearly conflations and errors in these three articles.

(1) while Robert (Mullins) Mant (19 March 1786 – 9 April 1834) is plausibly credited with the Archdeaconship of Down from 1828 (aged ca 42) until his death, Walter (Bishop) Mant (6 February 1808 – 6 April 1869) is also credited with same Archdeaconship from the same date (when he was ca 20), referenced to the identical source;

and

(2) Robert Mullins Mant is described as the son of Richard Mant (12 February 1776 – 2 November 1848), Bishop of Down from 1823, which would have Richard becoming a father before his tenth birthday! This Richard Mant is described as the son of Richard Mant D.D., described in Walter's article as the father of Walter, and of 'another son' who might be Robert.

Needs some further research! {The poster formerly known as 87,.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 12:21, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks all. I've started tweaking things, and will probably create the full list of Down archdeacons eventually. Our pages were pretty good, there were some date errors, but nothing else actually wrong. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 23:57, 29 April 2025 (UTC).

How did Harry M V Barron die?

Harry Montague Vaughan Barron, the son of Harry and Clara Barron, died on the 9th of February 1909, aged 27. He was buried at Kensal Green Cemetery at noon on the 13th. A notice in the Evening Standard on the 13th was to be accepted by friends as "the only intimation". He had married on the 11th February 1908 at the Roman Catholic St James's, Spanish Place. Sir Harry Barron's Who's Who entry does not mention his son. Do we know how HMV died? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 14:17, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Barron died in London after an operation for appendicitis. See [22]. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:26, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

April 29

John Hopkins University being right wing

Is this true that John Hopkins University is known to be a right-wing institution because some of its alumnus were known to be right-wing politician or minded people like Dr. Ben Carson, who was Trump's HUD secretary during the former's first term? --Donmust90-- Donmust90 (talk) 03:34, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

It is very rare for a university to be right-wing.  However, in general, universities are more open to different ideas and different beliefs, including political beliefs.  So you can't say a university is right-wing just because some of its alumni are considered right-wing politicians or people with right-wing ideas. Stanleykswong (talk) 06:39, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

The name is Johns Hopkins.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:19, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

US representatives Sarah Elfreth, Kweisi Mfume and Lauren Underwood are both JHU alumni and members of the Democratic Party, and so is Maryland governor Wes Moore. While these are probably fairly centrist, there is no reason to think the spectrum of political positions of JHU alumni is less broad than that of those from other research universities.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:33, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Ben Carson's almae matres are Yale University (BA) and University of Michigan (MD). He only did his residency in neurosurgery at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:42, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Definitely not. Ben Shapiro went to Harvard, Ron DeSantis to Yale, Ann Coulter to Cornell, and Trump famously to Penn. Take your pick, every elite institution has produced very conservative and very liberal figures. Strange how that works... Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 09:54, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

If you look at the list of 21st Century American far-right politicians, you'll see that virtually none of them are from Johns Hopkins University. Stanleykswong (talk) 12:16, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Military guards of the Royal Mint

Hi all, I was reading our article Royal Mint Court, as it is the proposed site of the new Chinese Embassy in London.[23] In the section Royal Mint Court#The Royal Mint the following sentence occurs: A narrow alley known as the Military Way ran along the inside of the wall, patrolled by the Royal Mint's military guard. <thinks> You what? </thinks>

My question: Apart from the Yeomen of the Guard in the Tower, is it the case that from around 1806 that the Mint Guard was provided by any of the Foot guards regiments in turn, as part of their guard duties at the nearby Tower of London, and in summer by normal line regiments? Most of the following is the research I attempted, in order to arrive at this question.

Background

The Royal Mint was originally located in the Tower of London until 1806. As far I have been able to discover, the garrison of the Tower was first supplied by 'Hamleteers', men from Tower Hamlets, the Tower Division. The Tower Guard was formed in 1648 as part of the Trained Bands of The Tower of London and its Hamlets, sometimes known as the The Tower Regiment of Foot.[24]

In 1685, during the Monmouth Rebellion, King James II raised a force of infantry from the Tower of London garrison; the Tower Hamlets Militia. Two companies from the Tower guard became the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment). The Royal London Militia was a volunteer unit, becoming the 7th Battalion, Royal Fusiliers, probably not involved with full-time duty at the Tower or Mint.

When the Mint was re-located to the Royal Mint Court in 1806, "Twenty-four soldiers kept permanent guard, relieved every 24 hours from the Tower."[25] "The military guard continued to be drawn from the Tower garrison until 1903" when the Metropolitan Police took over. "On 1st July 1903, a sergeant, corporal and nine men of the 4th Rifle Brigade lined up in front of the Mint, presented arms and marched away to the Tower, thereby dismounting the Mint Guard for the last time."[26][27]

The Tower was the barracks of the 1st Battalion Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment). (From Constable of the Tower#History.) They weren't necessarily involved in guard duty at the Tower.

The majority of the Royal Fusiliers moved to Hounslow Barracks in 1881 after being based at the Tower for nearly 200 years. Only a small number stayed.[28]

From the diary of Edward Cutler, (1878-1963) of the Scots Guards: "Guards occupied a deal of the duty at the Tower. Main Guard, from which the Ceremony of the Keys took place; Spur Guard to which was attached the "store kitchens", a cell we had to spend the night if unfortunately too late to pass the gates before midnight. Wharf Guard under the Tower Bridge, Magazine Guard and Royal Mint Guard: the Mint Guard ceased about the beginning of the South African War, as did the Sentry Posts on the Ramparts overlooking Tower Hill."[29]

"Next year it will be 60 years since the 2nd Battalion [the Gloucestershire Regiment] relieved the Guards at the Tower of London for two months." R.S.M. W. Stenner, (No. 7777, 1904-30) "Recollections: Old Soldiers Remember." The Back Badge, Summer 1964, pp. 48–9 [30] [i.e. 1905] He mentions the many duties to be found at the Tower: main guard, five posts; spur guard, two posts; wharf guard, one post. Inlying picquet about five posts; fire picquet, about a dozen. The Mint guard had been transferred to the Met by then.

Summary

So... It seems that the Mint Guard was one of the many duties performed by the battalion/regiment in residence at the Tower. Usually performed by (one of the?) Guards regiments, but during their annual Summer Camp it was devolved to one of the line regiments, including the Glosters and the Rifle Brigade, as above. It seems that the 4th Battalion, the Rifle Brigade was in residence at the time of handing over guard duties to the Met, and to them fell the final military duty of the Mint Guard. Am I on the right track? MinorProphet (talk) 11:05, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

https://british-police-history.uk/f/metropolitan-royal-mint Stanleykswong (talk) 12:47, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Notes

References

Tuhin Sinha and Wikipedia

He sued WP a while ago, recently there have been additions to the article that he withdrew, "He has withdrawn the suit. Please refer to the order on Saket District Court's website- punch in the following details. 10 CS DJ 518/22. This will not be covered in secondary media most likely."

Is anyone able to get a link out of this? Primary source might be useful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:41, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Here is a page where you can search by case number – which, however, must be a string of digits only, so it is not possible to "punch in" the identifier "10 CS DJ 518/22". Just "518", with the year 2022, brings up many cases, but not this one. Apparently there is some other "Saket District Court's website", but I have not found it.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:21, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Maurice Rose

American general who died near the end of WWII. Here's 3 pictures of him:

• Maurice Rose (US Army major general)
• Presidential Unit Citation ceremony - March 24, 1945 Generals Collins, Hodges and Rose,
• Rose as commander of the 3rd Armoured, August 1944 - March 1945

Why isn't he wearing any decorations in any of these pics, only general without in pic 2? Seems unlikely he didn't have any. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:30, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

There are some photos of him with his "fruit salad", e.g. here, but apparently he didn't like wearing it. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:37, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

It wasn't customary back then to wear all of your decorations. Dwight Eisenhower used to only wear a few of his. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:39, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, but this guy didn't wear any at all in most of his photos. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:10, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I think it's a person's own choice.  He needs only wear the decorations indicating his rank, not all decorations. Stanleykswong (talk) 06:22, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

April 30

Difference between Red Successors and Young Pioneers during Chinese Cultural Revolution?

Difference between Red Successors and Young Pioneers during Chinese Cultural Revolution? I just finished reading Red Scarf Girl by Ji-li Jaing. Red successors defined as mirroring Red Guard but in elementary school (we don't have article) while Young Pioneers defined as primary school group that included most children approved by school committees. Were the Young Pioneers officially recognized by the CCP because school committees were appointed by the CCP and the Red successors were not officially recognized because they were semi-formal? Is that the difference? Any help appreciated. Thanks. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:09, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

The Young Pioneers of China were (are!) an organization usurped during the Cultural Revolution, part of a greater pioneer movement in the socialist world. The term I know for "Red Successor" (红色接班人) is something I've seen on posters and in speeches, I have not read the memoir but my guess is it is a significant social position but not corresponding to a eponymous organization as such, see Little Red Guards. Remsense ‥ 论 01:28, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

The Communist Party of China is a highly flexible organization. During the Cultural Revolution, Lin Biao repeatedly referred to the Little Red Guards as red successors, but in fact, they are not and will never be. Stanleykswong (talk) 06:12, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

The Red Pioneers should be called Young Pioneers of China (中国少年先锋队 or 少先队 in short). Young Pioneers, formerly known as Labor Scouts (劳动童子军), was an organization established  for children from working class families during the All-Russian Congress in 1922.

The red successor (红色接班人) originally referred only to those who were born in a red aristocratic family. In Chinese Internet slang, it means "high in Zhao-containing" (含趙量高). Stanleykswong (talk) 06:07, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Nerdy voice

There's a particular voice that was used in 1980s/1990s comedy to mark a character as nerdy. Stilgoe and Skellern sing this entire song using it. I remember using it myself for a character in a school play.

Where did it come from? To some extent it's got to be that we were all copying one another. But then you'd expect there was a largely-forgotten original, in the same way that there are contemporary Peter Lorre impressions by people who don't themselves remember Lorre. Was there? Marnanel (talk) 12:42, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

The voice and mannerisms became popular with Jerry Lewis, specifically in his movie The Nutty Professor (1963 film). Jerry Lewis explained, in multiple interviews, that he and Dean met a man on a train from Chicago who spoke like that. They spoke to him throughout the trip, fascinated by his mannerisms. Jerry felt it was perfect for his nerdy side of the character in the movie. He kept the nerdy personna in standup comedy from that point on, making up strange words to accent the character. Certainly, Jerry Lewis is not the original nerdy character, but he popularized it and has been copied repeatedly. For example, Profesor Frink is an obvious rip-off character. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 13:41, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

"Nerdy", a slang term originating in the 1950's for "overly intellectual, obsessive, introverted, or lacking social skills", may not describe the patter song style as well as the bolded link in this lyric: "This particularly rapid, unintelligible patter / Isn't generally heard, and if it is, it doesn't matter". Stilgoe, Skellern and the OP in school were all following a comic song tradition marked by performers such as duo Flanders and Swann, and George Formby.You may enjoy searching their names in YouTube or hear the prime english-language patter song-smiths Gilbert and Sullivan by clicking in the box. Philvoids (talk) 14:31, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, but I'm familiar with patter songs; I was asking about the delivery they use in this particular song. Marnanel (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

You'd need to be Henry Higgins to figure out English nerdy from a song. Abductive (reasoning) 18:17, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

It may help you in your searches to know that this kind of voice is often called adenoidal. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:29, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Also there is spit in the mouth, perhaps due to braces or a retainer. Abductive (reasoning) 17:43, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Miss V. Wild, motorsport

Women's Automobile and Sports Association medals 1934 (back)

The above medals, in an image recently uploaded to Commons, were awarded in 1934 by the Women's Automobile and Sports Association to "Miss V. Wild" for motorsport events in the United Kingdom.

Who was she, and what became of her? Web searches find serval listings of her as a competitor, but no forename or other details - and no image. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:53, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I do not believe "Miss" is her name. Looking at the entrants for the race, I see "Mrs Montague Johnstone, Mrs A.Needham, Miss M.Allan, Miss Watson Riley, etc..." So, that tells me her name is "V. Wild." Victoria? Virginia? Vivian? A few years previous, Enrico Wild raced. Relation?

To make matters more complicated: At that time, the Wild family was into racing. Alessandro Wild raced under the name Ventidue Wild. Ludovico Wild raced under the name Ventuno Wild. There is also a Ventiquattro Wild. So, if this female driver is related, her first name likely does not begin with a V.

And another complication: I've found multiple references that state that the Wild family were Swiss-Italian racers who chose the last name "Wild" for their racing names. Their actual name is Italian. Therefore, all I can say is that it is very likely that the woman you are interested in is not named Miss, does not have a first name beginning with V, and does not have the last name Wild. In other words, "Miss V Wild" is not her name in any way. That makes it very difficult to find information about her. I suggest looking for family information about Alessandro Wild (understanding that Wild is not his real last name) and seeing if you can find information about his sister (or mother, or daughter, or cousin...). It likely isn't his wife because she is listed as Miss instead of Mrs. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 13:27, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Google Books has a single mention of a Lodovico Wild in a marriage announcement. Given that, as you mentioned, Wild seems to not be their actual family name, this may be someone else entirely. Nevertheless, I have transcribed the text below:

Mons[ignore] cav[aliere] dott[ore] Pietro Dell'Acqua, arciprete di Monza, nella Cappella privata dei conti Cambiaghi, ha benedetto le nozze della nobile signorina Maria Luisa dei conti Cambiaghi col sig[nore] dott[ore] Lodovico Wild.

This was sometime between 1938 and 1943 based on the listed it:Arciprete di Monza, so timing-wise it would generally seem to line up. GalacticShoe (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

If you look very, very, very closely, you can see her in this photo (click twice to enlarge twice). (It may just be me, but her passenger looks like Stalin in profile.) Clarityfiend (talk) 07:05, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Somewhat clearer in this photograph driving a different car in 1933. Mikenorton (talk) 12:11, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Looks like the same navigator, though.

I don't think anyone thought for a moment that "Miss" was anything other than her social position (apart from anything else it's in upper & lower case, whereas the surname is all caps): in some sports 'Mr. X' and 'Mrs/Miss/Ms Y' are/were added to names to designate amateur competitors as opposed to professionals whose names only are/were used, but I don't know if that applied in this sport at this time. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 13:13, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

For those with a newspapers.com account, there is a good picture of her on page 17 of the 15 May 1933 Daily Record. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:36, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

If there's no named photographer, it's likely to be copyright-expired, so perhaps you could upload it to Wikimedia Commons? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:45, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure that there's a relevant PD tag for 1933 publications? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:13, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

{{UK-PD-unknown}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:55, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: Thanks, have a look at File:Motor enthusiasts V Wild, M Allan, Marjorie Cottle, Marshall, and Dickson.png. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 12:37, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:20, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, WASA members seemed to be upper-class ladies so i was looking at Viola Mary Harmsworth (Wild) Jeannerat (1910 - 1952). Discarded tho because she was married 1935 and this was 1939. There's a wedding photo in "Early Spring Weddings...". The Bystander. March 13, 1935. available at British Newspaper Archive. Some resemblance i think. You got mail, but i pointed to wrong photo, #1 upper left. fiveby(zero) 13:38, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Now on Wikidata as Miss V. Wild (Q134301730). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:21, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

It's a shame that the forename isn't apparent. I could find lots of mentions of her entries into various races in the 1930s, and can even give you the colour of the vehicle she predominantly raced in, but never her full name. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 13:34, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Since, as 68.187.174.155 has demonstrated above, her entire 'competitive' name is assumed, as was her family's practice in sporting contexts, perhaps the 'V' doesn't stand for anything.

Her competitors/friend may simply have addressed her as "Vee", and the complete absence of any 'full forename' in press reports where others' forenames are given suggests she never mentioned one. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 06:57, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

it's a plausible theory, but far from "demonstrated". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:16, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

I am very confident in saying that her forename, or at least the name she went by, begins with V. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:29, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Alessandro Wild and Ludovico Wild both raced under the pseudonyum V. Wild at the same time as the V. Wild discussed in this thread. They went by their real names, not the "V" names, which is how we know what their real first names were. We also know that their last name is not "Wild." I have no confidence that any racer named "V. Wild" at that time is named either V or Wild. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 17:57, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Also, I realized that the other racers are named Ventuno Wild, Ventidue Wild, and Ventiquattro Wild. In Italian, that is 21 Wild, 22 Wild,and 24 Wild. Maybe the V. Wild here is Ventitre Wild. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 18:22, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

68., i think everyone is looking for a nice English girl, why do you keep looking for Italian men? Some chance it was Viola, she played some lawn tennis and got trounced in the 1936 Women's British Open Squash Championship listed under her married name "Mrs Viola Jeannerat". Baseball Bugs would you mind looking at the photo in Daily Mirror 6th March 1935 page 17 on newspapers.com and see if you think it is the same person? fiveby(zero) 12:50, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Why look for men? There are four V. Wild racers in the 1920s and 1930s. Two are identified as brothers often. The third man is confusing and is sometimes listed as a third brother or a new alias for one of the previous brothers. The female V. Wild's car model and number match the car model and number used by one of the brothers. That makes it likely that the V. Wild female is related to the two V. Wild brothers and maybe even a third V. Wild relative. So, if someone were to work out the proper last name of the two V. Wild brothers, that is likely the same last name as the V. Wild female. From there, it may be possible to work out the true identify of Miss V. Wild. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 13:55, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

May 1

Fall of Saigon

Why'd they do this? Rushed landing aim? I thought the heavy engine might be in the front but a Bell UH-1 Iroquois engine is behind the passengers (which is logical, minimize transmission weight). Why didn't they land on the level the back of the line was on? Slightly harder to snipe at, no need to build propwashed wood steps in a hurry. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:52, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

They haven't landed; the rotors are holding the helicopter in position. This is often done in mountain rescues. The building is still there, so you can see the size of the three rooftops available. I don't recall the VC being interested in sniping civilians during the Fall of Saigon. Abductive (reasoning) 17:14, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

An interview with the pilot and film from another direction which might help is in this YouTube clip. Alansplodge (talk) 11:40, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Vatican boundary question

Why was the southeastern chunk of Church property outlined in blue here (now containing most of the Paul VI Audience Hall) not included in the Vatican City state under the Lateran Treaty? 71.126.57.99 (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Nothing seems to come up in the Googling. Except perhaps that it (the Palace of the Holy Office which is also on the chunk) was used during the Inquisition to imprison people, and so maybe best not to give the Vatican any such facility. Abductive (reasoning) 17:22, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

(ec) Presumably because it was not owned by the Vatican at the time. According to the source used in our article Paul VI Audience Hall it was given to the Holy See in 1965 by the Knights of St Columbus. It had been St Peter's Oratory. DuncanHill (talk) 17:22, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I think there's no "Knights of St Columbus" - there's the Knights of St Columba (biggest?, most likely), Knights of Columbus or Knights of Saint Columbanus. Johnbod (talk) 17:30, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Quoting our article: "It was constructed on land donated by the Knights of Columbus and is named for Pope St. Paul VI" and the source of the inline citation given is titled Faith and fraternalism : the history of the Knights of Columbus, 1882-1982. Modocc (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

May 2

History

How the celebration of heritage day enforces the application of the constitution of South africa 41.114.167.113 (talk) 19:45, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Presumably you're talking about Heritage Day (South Africa), and this sounds like a homework question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:44, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

If it is a homework question, it seems to be improperly worded, because "enforce" is clearly too strong. I'd be stumped by the question as is. Nationally celebrating rights afforded by law may strengthen the inclination of the judicial system to apply these laws faithfully, but I don't know if South Africans celebrating the day think of this as also celebrating their Bill of Rights. Here is a Parliament Statement issued last year on Heritage Day in which the Presiding Officers of Parliament note that "Heritage Day is also a time to remember and take pride in what unites us – our Constitution".  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:01, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Scott Brison

I'm chipping away at adding citations and expanding this article about a Canadian politician. The article states: "When Bob Rae dropped out on the third ballot and released his delegates, Scott Brison opted to support the politically similar Michael Ignatieff." I cannot for the life of me find a source that confirms this anywhere on Newspapers.com or otherwise. Can anyone lend a hand here? MediaKyle (talk) 20:38, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

"   Scott Brison    ... Supported Rae, then Ignatieff."^[31]  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:40, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

You're my hero, thank you. MediaKyle (talk) 10:30, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

May 4

Truck painting art

There are some truck images where they are painted in some pop culture patterns (like Peterbilt 359), seemingly related to historical American trucking culture. But finding reasonably large images of such painted trucks to discern and identify the paintings was tough for me - most appear only on scale models rather than actual trucks (like that Peterbilt as a Revell model). Are there any sources specifically dealing with such art paintings on trucks? And are those paintings based on actual trucks? Brandmeister^talk 10:43, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

By "identify", do you mean, "identify the original of which this is a copy"? I expect most to be original art work, not unlike typical graffiti murals.  ​‑‑Lambiam 11:13, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I mean to identify what is actually depicted on them (which may include the original paintings). Brandmeister^talk 11:17, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Did The Inca Kings exist?

I was asking questions about Aztec and Inca History to a friend who studied anthropology and colonial history of Latin America, and he told me most Inca Emperors, except maybe the last one and Huascar and Atahualpa, were "probably not real". I don't know if his view is common or not, and I didn’t find anything on Wikipedia, so I'm asking here. Did the Inca Kings really exist? 80.187.85.122 (talk) 14:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

You could start by asking him to prove his assertion. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:08, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

It's so improbable that the Incan Empire, with its extensive irrigation system, didn't have a succession of rulers. If you look at the Sapa Inca article, there are only 13 emperors. There is a great deal of rather ordinary and believable detail about them, such as being the third son, setting up a school system, or being poisoned in a plot over succession. The only troubling aspect is that each of them was said to have ruled for nearly exactly 30 years. Perhaps there were some Chester A. Arthurs and William Henry Harrisons among them that were left out of the oral histories. Abductive (reasoning) 21:12, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Arthur had a rather normal-length presidency; it was his predecessor, Garfield, who is much more analogous to Harrison. Nyttend (talk) 02:28, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Garfield is remembered because he was assassinated. Abductive (reasoning) 06:08, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Failing to understand Hitlerite Germany

In McCallum, R. B. (1944). Public Opinion and the Last Peace. Oxford University Press. p. 110. we read "Professor Brogan has remarked that to fail to understand Hitlerite Germany required not merely ignorance but will." I would be grateful to known when and where Brogan said that. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:16, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Here is a trail of my fruitless search. In the same book (Public Opinion And The Last Peace), McCallum writes, "Professor Brogan has pointed out that Englishmen who professed such admiration for the constructive work of the Nazis and Fascists forget that France carried out a great construction of her own."^[32] It appears quite plausible to me that this derives from the same source as the "not merely ignorance but will" pronouncement. The statement has a footnote citing as source: D. W. Brogan. The Development of Modern France, p. 599. The same work by Brogan is cited elsewhere in McCallum's book, and it is the only work by Brogan named there. It is indeed a source for the French reconstruction effort,^[33] but I failed to find some version of the "not merely ignorance but will" or "admiration ... forget" pronouncements anywhere in this work.

In an article on Lord Halifax, McCallum has mentioned the "not merely ignorance but will" pronouncement using a slightly different wording:

Sir Denis Brogan has said that to misunderstand Hitler's intentions required not only ignorance but will-power.^[34]

The verb forms (remarked, pointed out, said) leave open the possibility that the source is a speech delivered by Brogan.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Thank you (twice) for the above, I was going to look up Brogan on French reconstruction later, you have saved me the effort. As for my original question, I have found the answer. I found:

And to be deceived about Hitler’s Germany required more than ignorance, it required will. There was abundant evidence of the character of the leaders of the Third Reich, their aims, their ideals. Those aims and ideals were as odious and dangerous in theory as in practice. There was no ground for the illusion that Nazi Germany was evolving towards decency; it was getting worse and worse ; more and more like its own vision of itself the longer it lasted. People can believe anything, but the suspension of disbelief in the evident that marked so many commentators on Germany, so many visitors of eminence to Germany between 1933 and 1939, gives a new and more depressing extension to “anything”.

in Brogan, D. W. (1941). "Broadbent Abroad". Is Innocence Enough? Some reflections on foreign affairs. London: Hamish Hamilton. p. 69.. DuncanHill (talk) 12:25, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Hiding in plain sight at Denis William Brogan. 2A00:23D0:40A:C501:3012:1D64:4442:BE80 (talk) 13:13, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I added it to the article! DuncanHill (talk) 13:17, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

May 5

Lalitpur and Uttar Pradesh

Why is Lalitpur District part of Uttar Pradesh, and not part of Madhya Pradesh, which almost completely surrounds it? I know state boundaries were set to match linguistic borders, but their articles' infoboxes suggest that both states are predominately Hindi-speaking. Neither the district article nor Lalitpur, India explains this, and neither Uttar Pradesh nor Geography of Uttar Pradesh mentions Lalitpur. Nyttend (talk) 02:52, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Lalitpur was in the United Provinces (see United Provinces of Agra and Oudh and United Provinces (1937–1950)) before they were re-named Uttar Pradesh. Before that it was in North-Western Provinces and before that Agra Presidency. Presumably when the states were re-organised in 1956 there was no compelling reason to move it from a Hindi-speaking state of which it had been a part for many years, to another Hindi-speaking state. DuncanHill (talk) 11:38, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes, the savings in not having to redo signs & stationery etc is often thought to be the reason why the universal abbreviation "U.P." was able to remain "U.P." (Uttar Pradesh = "Central region"), despite not really being very central in any geographical sense. Johnbod (talk) 03:28, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Who was Scrutator?

In Duster, A Gentleman with a (1922). "Lord Northcliffe". The Mirrors of Downing Street (Popular ed.). London: Mills & Boon, Limited. p. 56. we read "I think Scrutator in Truth has uttered the truest and therefore the most useful reflection on Lord Northcliffe's life." Begbie then describes Scrutator as "sane and responsible" and quotes him at length. So, who was Scrutator? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:11, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Reviewing Newspapers.com (pay site), I see over 41,000 ocurrences of the word "Scrutator". It often seems to be used in reference to the process for choosing a new Pope, implying one who scrutinizes the process. However, I also ran across a 1940 obit that said a person known as "Scrutator", the pen name of a London Times editorialist, had died. His name was Herbert Sidebotham. Might this be it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:15, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

In William Cushing's Initials and Pseudonyms: A Dictionary of Literary Disguises (1886) he's identified as Henry Du Pré Labouchère, Truth's editor, but since Labouchère died in 1912 that's no answer to your question. We're perhaps looking at a William Hickey kind of franchise. --Antiquary (talk) 09:30, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

I think it must have been a William Hickey-type of situation, and also it's clear more than one paper had a Scrutator. Sidebotham was Sunday Times, and others used the name there. The Morning Leader also had a Scrutator. I've now had a chance to look at some of the columns in Truth. Some appear under the name "A Truthful Tory", which was an acknowledged "William Hickey". Others do not have a byline. The 1929 Truth obituary of Robert Augustus Bennett, "until recently the editor of Truth", says his earliest contributions (he started writing for Truth in 1884) included occaisional "Scrutator" articles. So "a Truth journalist" is probably as close as we will get, absent the files. DuncanHill (talk) 09:56, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Columnists need not be involved in the process of presenting of news, so I'm not sure every columnist would be considered a journalist. "A Truth columnist" may be a mere appropriate label.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:19, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

A journalist need not be involved in the process of presenting of news either! OED journalist "One who earns his or her living by editing or writing for newspapers, magazines, etc", dated to 1693. OED columnist "Originally U.S. One who writes a ‘column’ in the newspaper press. In the U.S. sometimes with the jocular spelling colyumist. Dated to 1920. DuncanHill (talk) 10:30, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

I agree that that's the British usage, at any rate, of journalist. I believe I've even come across newspaper cartoonists being so described, though crossword compilers, hmm, that might be pushing it. If we're dipping into the OED I'll add scrutator, "one who examines or investigates", so an obvious choice for any writer of political or social comment, whether in Truth or elsewhere. --Antiquary (talk) 12:45, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

April 23

Ethnic or other slur?

The word Gualdo has a number of meanings in Wikipedia and Wiktionary and in the first few hits of web search, but I saw it in a context that made it sound like a slur against some group, or maybe a political faction. Nothing I found said anything about that. Can anyone explain? Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:86B1:F06:D9D0:84F6 (talk) 23:15, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

What was the context? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:47, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I can't find the post now but it was someone on the interweb saying the proposed prisoner swap between El Salvador and Venezuela[35] would create an "army of gualdos". I tried to find out what a gualdo was in that context. 2601:644:8581:75B0:86B1:F06:D9D0:84F6 (talk) 04:04, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Maybe it's a misspelling. That's been known to happen on the internet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:46, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

I could imagine it being a hispanicization of the name Waldo, although I fail to understand the connotations. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:42, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Wild speculation, but if this is the source of the term, perhaps it implies that the exchanged prisoners, presumed to be dangerous, would thereafter be able to 'disappear into the crowd' (as in Where's Waldo?) and be hard to subsequently track and monitor. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 00:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

ah yes, Güérez Gualdo —Tamfang (talk) 00:48, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Gualdo is apparently also a Spanish word for "yellow", wihch suggested a political group or faction. Apparently the locked-up Venezuelans who Bukele proposed to swap were all members of some right-wing movement. I don't know if the idea was for the prisoners to be freed, rather than just repatriated to their own country's jails. 2601:644:8581:75B0:7F06:C593:E17C:D28B (talk) 00:12, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

April 24

Ages in Spanish

When someone at their 18th birthday party gets asked about their age, why do they say "tengo dieciocho años" (lit. "I have eighteen years") and not "yo soy dieciocho" (lit. "I am eighteen")? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 05:55, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Because that's how they say it. Spanish is not English. Also, I could argue that if they did use the "I am" construction, they might say "estoy" rather than "soy". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:44, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

It seems to go back to a variant phrasing in Latin. It's pretty futile to ask "why" other languages do things differently. It's just how they evolved. [36] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:20, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Maybe TWO and 40bus are cousins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:08, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

"Repeat customers" would be a better term. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 20:38, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

That much is certain. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:48, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

No, they are the same person. 40TWO. That's the answer.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:39, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Some people seem to have the idea that translating one language into another can be done robotically, word by word. That is hardly ever possible. It's way more complex than that. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

When an English speaker (presumably aware of the fact that they are not a number) at their 18th birthday party gets asked about their age, why do they say, "I am eighteen"? It would make much more sense to reply with something like "I have eighteen years". All languages are weird, but some are weirder than others.  ​‑‑Lambiam 17:39, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

In English, and other Germanic languages, it could be interpreted as a clipping of "I am eighteen years old.", which I think makes some more sense logically. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:22, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Saying "I have 18 years" sounds very odd to me. Those years are the past. I no longer have them. Actually, I never had them. They slipped away from me instant by instant. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:36, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Well, you can still say "I have experience", which I find quite comparable. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Different languages do things in different ways, shock horror!

In Scots Gaelic, the question "How old are you – Dè 'n aois a tha thu?" would literally translate something like "How many years are to you (I think), which might seem weird to an Anglophone, but is of course entirely natural to a Gaelic speaker – which is also true of all other languages.

Language is complicated, evolves quickly, and has naturally evolved differently in different, separated settings. As others have said, "How?" is often an answerable question, "Why?" is often not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 22:41, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

It doesn't get used much any more (and I don't know how popular it was previously), but it was once cromulent for a seventeen-year-old to say they were "in their eighteenth year". Some searching suggests that the format is still used, though by people a year older (i.e. eighteen-year-old people). The original usage technicalities may not be remembered. Matt Deres (talk) 17:25, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

So it's something of a "twentieth century expression"?... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:47, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

More like 19th century. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:35, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

I think Wakuran was just subtly pointing out that we number centuries in the same way. Saying I'm in my twentieth year is the same kind of form as saying I live in the twentieth century. Matt Deres (talk) 13:53, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Unit usage questions

Question 1

Do people in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland, which are now nearly fully metric, use phrases like "A few kilometres from here", "kilometres of plain sand", "I can see kilometres away from here"? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

In Australia we tend to say "k's" (kays), reserving "kilometres" for more formal use. The first example, definitely. The other two, not so much. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:31, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

In Canada, it would be more idiomatic to use "miles" in those examples. "Kilometres" would certainly be understood, but the number of syllables makes it stilted to use in everyday speech. Matt Deres (talk) 15:52, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

I teach Maths in an Australian high schools. Most of the students have no idea how long a mile is with any precision at all. I think most of them know it's somewhat longer than a kilometre, but nothing more accurate than that. I probably have said "A few kilometres from here" or something similar. Not so sure about the other two. I think I would have thrown in an approximate round number of kilometres, for example "About 10 kilometres of plain sand" HiLo48 (talk) 23:57, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Question 2

Are there any expressions, proverbs or idioms mentioning a metric unit in any variety of English? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

2. Well, the second is a metric unit, but I take it not one that you're interested in here. Also, if I'm to believe the good people at Collins Dictionaries the idiom like a ton of bricks occasionally appears as like a tonne of bricks. --Antiquary (talk) 11:32, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Actually, the word second is ambiguous, When measured by atomic clocks it is indeed a metric unit, but as 1/86 400 of the mean solar day it was introduced by Al-Biruni some 1,800 years before the metric system was thought of.

Americans often use the phrase "a metric ton" to mean a large quantity. (A usage that confused me as a Brit, until I realised that the default ton in the US was the short ton (2000lb, or 907kg), and so smaller than the 1000kg metric ton and the 2240lb (1016kg) long ton used in the UK). Iapetus (talk) 12:07, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Question 3

Are there any placenames in English-speaking areas which are named after metric distances, as if 100 Mile House were 100 Kilometre House? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Not yet, that I know of. HiLo48 (talk) 23:42, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Question 4

Do people in countries listed in Question 1 say "half a kilometre" when referring to 500 m? Do they write 1⁄2 km? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

Re 4: You can find this in use by the US Army: [37]. Also, the Canadian creator of the article Mount Stephen wrote: "1⁄2 km east of Field".  ​‑‑Lambiam 23:38, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

IIRC, The US Army would often use the slang variant "click" for kilometer. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:56, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Usually spelled klick. Deor (talk) 14:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

In Canada, yes. Elementary school tried to bash into my brain that metric measures could never be referred to with fractions, but "half a kilometre" gets used often enough (when we use kilometres at all). "500 meters" sounds too precise. Matt Deres (talk) 18:21, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Never? Is that a prescriptivist rule similar to the split infinitive objection? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:56, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Using the SI system, the value of a physical quantity is reported in the form "⟨NUMBER⟩ ⟨UNIT SYMBOL⟩", in which the numerical value is given in a decimal representation. So "4.5 V battery" is fine, but "4½ V battery" is non-standard. However, when the name of the unit is spelled out, the ordinary rules of grammar apply. Writing, in prose, "four and a half volts", is impeccable.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:17, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

1⁄2 km is unlikely to be written because it's too hard to write. HiLo48 (talk) 23:45, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

How is that, exactly? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:15, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

There is no 1⁄2 key on computer keyboards. HiLo48 (talk) 09:20, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

There is a wonderful technology called handwriting. Using this technology, writing 1⁄2 is easier than 0.5. Each character in 1⁄2 is written with just a single stroke, while 5 is usually written with two strokes, and closing the loop of the 0 requires more mastery than executing an open stroke.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:27, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Who uses handwriting these days? HiLo48 (talk) 09:36, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Even on computers, I might probably write 1/2, occasionally. (It's arguably possible to mix up with the sense "1 or 2", but I think it should generally be construed correctly out of context.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

I use handwriting for shopping lists and greeting cards and for simple to-do lists and for phone numbers I will probably use only once. Cullen328 (talk) 07:16, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

May 4

"Could I have..."

I was taught that the polite way to ask for something in a grocery or take-away food shop was "Could I have such and such please." But the indolent youth of today seem to insist on saying "Could I get such and such please", which to me is an abomination and smacks of uncouth Americanisation. Or am I being too harsh? Are there regional differences, as I live in one of the better parts of England! 2A00:23C7:533:3C01:190F:C79:C9D2:D057 (talk) 12:14, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Seems to me if a customer says "can I get" and the employee brings it to them, they can walk out witĥ it without paying.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:17, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Undoubtedly American, and uncouth. DuncanHill (talk) 19:06, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

I have plenty of get-off-my-lawn peeves of my own, but this is about the least motivated one I can imagine. What in the world is less polite about "get" compared to "have"??? One seems to emphasize the process of acquiring the item versus the state of possessing it, but that's about the only difference I can see. They're both peculiar circumlocutions, being in the conditional mood and asking whether something is possible rather than asking for the thing. Paraphrasing, it's something like "under unspecified but likely false conditions, would a possible world exist in which I have/acquire the item under discussion?" The answer "yes" does not seem to be an agreement to provide the item, merely an agreement that under such conditions, such a possible world would exist. --Trovatore (talk) 19:48, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Starting either sentence with "May I" would be better. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:06, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

With "may", literally speaking, you're asking for permission to have/acquire the item. That doesn't make a lot of sense either. It's usually not about permission; you're requesting a service from the other person. --Trovatore (talk) 20:10, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Where are we, 1813 or something? It's all predicated on what the barrista asks. If she says "What can I get you?", the easy, simple and polite answer is just "A flat white, please." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Customer: "Can I get a flat white?" Waitress: "Not here, but I can get one for you. If you want to get it yourself go home." DuncanHill (talk) 21:11, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

"Hey Miss, can I get a flat white?"
"Naw, honey, you ain't gettin' nuffin'"

Oh dear. Now we seem to have Mr Darcy stumbling into the Costa Coffee in Tunbridge Wells... Martinevans123 (talk) 21:19, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

"Get" is one of the most overloaded verbs in the English language. I expect in any random large dictionary you'll find at least a dozen meanings. To be fair, a lot of those will be as part of phrasal verbs, which isn't under discussion here.

But one of the core meanings is "receive" or "acquire". When the barista gives you a coffee, you do get it. Otherwise how would you drink it? --Trovatore (talk) 21:27, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

You just don't get it, do you? DuncanHill (talk) 21:36, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

I get that you're trying to defend an indefensible position. --Trovatore (talk) 21:37, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

That British English and American English work differently? DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

That there's something inherently rude about saying "get a cup of coffee". --Trovatore (talk) 22:14, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Uncouth. OED: "unfamiliar or strange... odd, uncomely, awkward, or clumsy... awkward and uncultured". I never said "inherently rude". It is, however, inherently rude to say I said something which I did not. DuncanHill (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

To be fair, the original comment did (I presume half-jokingly) call us get-users "indolent", it wouldn't be too farfetched to interpret that disdain as being a result of finding the phrasing (and its perceived lack of manners) rude. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:51, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

The youth in my part of Australia seem to say "Can I please have....", which seems somehow wrong to my ageing ears. HiLo48 (talk) 07:44, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

"May I please have" is better. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

"Can" (or "could") is appropriate if there is some question of pracicality. —Tamfang (talk) 21:35, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

My closest friend, born 1955 and raised in Beverly Hills (on the wrong side of the tracks), says "can I get". I, raised in Illinois, would never say that. —Tamfang (talk) 21:33, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Near the end of Animal House, one guy walks into a store, goes to the counter, and says, "May I have 10,000 marbles please?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:00, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Hey, lady ...

I was in a shop on Saturday, second in the queue. The woman in front was served, paid, and left. I stepped up, and discovered she had left her glasses on the ledge below the counter. I was moved to call out to her, and I was just about to yell "Hey, lady, you've forgotten your glasses" but I realised that would sound crass and vulgar, so I said "Hey, madam, ...". She heard me, and came back for her glasses, thanking me.

As I was basking in the sunlight of my kindness, I reflected that as a child, I was taught to refer to women as ladies, and that has pretty much always been my way. Ladies are obviously women, but there's something not quite right about referring to them as such. Don't ask me to explain it, it's subtle and probably culturally complex. Yet, to call out "Hey, lady" in public would be an even worse social sin. Nobody is ever called "Madam" these days (not even Ethel Merman), but that seemed the only choice I had left in that moment of crisis and high drama.

Is there a term for a word choice that is preferred in one context (not women, but ladies) but contraindicated in another (Not "hey, lady", but "hey, madam")? (Please don't get into whether "hey" was an appropriate choice, or whether it irretrievably outed me as the vulgarian I spend my life trying not to be.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:22, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

This is not quite responsive, but it brings to mind a memory. One time I was out to dinner with my mother and sister. I think we were taking my mom out for her birthday or something. The waiter kept addressing my mom as "lady". It was clear to my sister and me that this was intended to be a term of respect — the waiter seemed likely to be Mexican (as in from Mexico, not just of Mexican ancestry) and was perhaps thinking in Spanish, translating the title "Señora". But it didn't come across to my Mississippian mother. --Trovatore (talk) 00:02, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Some subtlety of politeness or manners. And I would use "ma'am", not "madam", which is kind of old-fashioned. For whatever reason, calling a woman just "lady" has come to be kind of insulting, even though referring to them indirectly as "ladies" still works. Similarly, I wouldn't call a man "mister", but "sir". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:23, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Looking at the various uses of "lady",[38] it occurs to me that in your context, even better than "ma'am", though much more old-fashioned, could be "me lady". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:27, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

The use of ma'am versus madam varies by region; see Wiktionary:ma'am#Usage notes.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:00, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I take it that the establishment in which this incident occurred was not one in which "Coo-ee, Sheila!" would have been appropriate? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 06:36, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

There are no places where such a thing would be said. By anyone. Ever. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:40, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I would just have said "excuse me" to get her attention. --Viennese Waltz 06:58, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I recall once when the women in the office were referring to each other as "girls". Like a good wannabe feminist, I questioned that, and the answer was, "Women are 'old'!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:58, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

But woe betide a man who calls them "girls" these days. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:38, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Grrlz ?  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:04, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I would never, ever use "madam" due to one of its meanings having to do with procuring (prostitution). "Lady" is a bit unusual in these here parts, so IMO ma'am is the safest choice. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:27, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I guess that's similar how to "colored person" is considered extremely offensive, while the correct term is "person of color". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:41, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, aside from use at some high society events that I would never be invited to, calling a woman "madam" where I live would probably result in her slapping you. Or her husband/boyfriend (or brother or father) from inflicting even more physical damage upon you. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:50, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Or old-fashioned formality, as with the opening lines of "Paperback Writer": "Dear sir or madam, will you read my book? It took me years to write, will you take a look?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:22, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Well, sure, but some stuff hit differently depending on the mode of communication. The song is a quote from a letter and starting letters with Sir/Madam is not the same as starting a verbal conversation. For example, you wouldn't end your conversation with "With kindest regards..." either. Matt Deres (talk) 14:04, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

ISMO has a routine about being called "sir" and how it generally means you're in trouble somehow. It's funny because it's true. --Trovatore (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

In an early Simpsons episode, Homer longs for the situation of being called "Sir" without having "You're making a scene" appended. FWIW, I call and am called sir many times a day; it just seems to be standard address among coworkers here. Matt Deres (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Huh. What line are you in, if you don't mind sharing? --Trovatore (talk) 20:16, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

I think it's a regional thing. I have various American Facebook friends, some of whom called me "sir" when we first started interacting. I told them there was no need for such a deferential approach with me, but they said it's the norm where they live (mainly southern-ish states). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:23, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Sure. I did a postdoc at North Texas. One of my colleagues had a four-year-old daughter, and he would address her with "yes, ma'am" from time to time. But Matt, if I'm not mistaken, is Canadian, though of course it's conceivable he could have moved to the Southern US. --Trovatore (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

May 5

"Bidirectional" language instruction

Is there a term for a language class where speakers of two languages each learn the other's language? And is there a pedagogical tradition of this anywhere? 71.126.56.251 (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Language exchange seems somewhat close to what you have in mind, although the article doesn't look particularly good. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:14, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

In Sweden, I have heard about tandem meetups, but they're rather just two persons meeting than regular classes. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:43, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Ahh, there even is a Wikipedia article; Tandem language learning. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:08, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

April 22

Time Traveler Luke

What is the English title of the ninth chapter of Time Traveler Luke, the one between Mr. X and The Last Time Travel? – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 12:40, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Apparently, "The Blacksmith's Legacy".^[39]  ​‑‑Lambiam 15:35, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Note for other users: If the answer is already present in the draft I linked to, that's because I edited it after this question was answered. – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 00:24, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

April 25

Kalibak in Superman (2025)

Will Kalibak be in The Superman movie in 2025? 50.100.64.145 (talk) 02:16, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Reviewing the article Superman (2025 film), it does not appear so. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:35, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

The Shining article: Is this Kubrick quote a hoax?

Hello, The Shining (film) states:

Furthermore, the filmmaker did not believe in ghost stories because that "would imply the possibility that there was something after death," and he did not believe there was anything, "not even hell."

I was quite interested by this quote but there is no source. (The two sources around it do not have it. Google Web only returns a few recent cites of the wiki article sans source, eg this 2022 Screen Rant article sounds like it was written from wiki-pilfering. Google Books and Google Scholar and Google News have zilch. I don't have access to academic resources.) While I understand this may come from a print interview not online, or be some literal translation of a foreign interview, it also looks like a fake quote...

Can someone find a decent source for it? Thanks, 77.147.79.62 (talk) 18:39, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

While I can't independently corroborate Kubrick not believing in ghost stories, I don't see why you think this 'looks like a fake quote'.

Regarding his thoughts about an afterlife, and hell, see our article Political and religious beliefs of Stanley Kubrick, in particular its closing paragraph:

'In Stanley Kubrick: A Life in Pictures, Jack Nicholson recalls that Kubrick said The Shining is an overall optimistic story because "anything that says there's anything after death is ultimately an optimistic story." Stephen King recounts hearing the same thing from Kubrick in conversation with him, and replied, "What about hell?" King says there was a pause and Kubrick answered, "I do not believe in hell." '

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 19:45, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

In looking at Newspapers.com (pay site), I found a King quote similar to that one in contemporary writeups about the movie. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:07, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

From a purely logical point of view, one can be an atheist yet not exclude the possibility of physical manifestations of immaterial beings. The source of the statement in our article The Shining is almost certainly the testimony of Kubrick's stepdaughter, quoted in the section Political and religious beliefs of Stanley Kubrick § Religion:

I asked him once after The Shining, if he believed in ghosts. He said that it would be nice if there "were" ghosts, as that would imply that there is something after death. In fact, I think he said, "Gee I hope so."

It is a bit of a stretch from this quote to the declarative statement in the article The Shining.  ​‑‑Lambiam 13:08, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Animatronics versus CGI

Watched My Penguin Friend last night. According to the film's IMDB page, CGI was used for 15% of the shots, while animatronics accounted for the final 5%. If you're directing a film and have access to CGI software and skilled users, and access to animatronic animals, what factors would influence your decision to use one or the other? In this film, where hazardous situations could endanger the animatronics (e.g. the character falls down a cliff and swims, injured, in the ocean), I'm a bit surprised that animatronics were used at all. Nyttend (talk) 21:04, 25 April 2025 (UTC)

Here you can read why film director Christopher Nolan prefers practical effects over CGI. While this focuses on Nolan, the reasons pertain to any director who puts great value in their films having the feel of recorded physical reality. This is less important for most fantasy and many adventure films. For these, effects being unrealistically spectacular is more important for the box office success hoped for.  ​‑‑Lambiam 12:48, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

That same aspect is important for a movie like My Penguin Friend were the theme asks for the expression of a lot of genuine empathy from the actors. Implied projection from them into their (required) theme park mood might be made easier with them interacting with, or witnessing animatronics action than their looking for inspiration by processing unfinished CGI displays. --Askedonty (talk) 14:47, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

April 26

Stats boxes in articles on football (soccer) players

There appears to be a standardised stats box that appears in articles on football (soccer) players. It lists clubs played for, season, and by competition, with two performance columns - appearances and goals. This seems to be used regardless of the position of the player. This is very oudated way of recording key performance data for footballers. Only forwards are judged primarily on goals, and even there assists are also significant. for defenders and goalkeepers, however, simply listing goals is meaningless. There is no reason why additional columns for 'clean sheets', and others like 'goals conceded per 90 mins' could not be inserted into the standard template. Would you consider this? I appreciate there may not be an official 'standard template' but there clearly is a template that people use for these articles, which they must get from somewhere, and it would good to change it to provide more relevant data. Creeves25 (talk) 15:22, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

Can you provide an example? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:24, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

The right place to raise your concerns is Template talk:Infobox football biography. Note, however, that your point on goalkeeper stats was discussed almost twenty years ago and rejected - see Goalies. --Viennese Waltz 17:55, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

I see that that template talk lists some soccer-related projects. I would think questions like this one would get broader attention at one of those projects. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:06, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

This issue appears in all team sports where not all members of the team share the same role: football, hockey, road cycling. Sporters can be valuable to the team without personally scoring points, but there's no simple statistic to quantify their usefulness. Number of drinking bottles delivered to the team leader? Nobody keeps track of that. PiusImpavidus (talk) 08:42, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Listing goals is not entirely meaningless, since those knowlegeable about the game will be able to put the number for non-striking-position players in the context of what might be expected for those positions. The problem with more elaborate stats is that most were simply not compiled until relatively recently (even formally noting 'assists' is quite new to this sexegenarian), so the effort of calculating them, even if the necessary base data were to be available, would be immense. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 22:26, 27 April 2025 (UTC).

Fine, but going forward the stats box could have columns for this data (being left blank for older players for whom such data doesn't exist), yes? Creeves25 (talk) 23:18, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Also, goals scored for goalkeepers is meaningless, and clean sheets data is readily available since at least 1992-3 Creeves25 (talk) 23:21, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

See List of goalscoring goalkeepers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:26, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

April 28

Frank Drebin Jr

Hi,

Should Frank Drebin Jr (played by Liam Neeson in the upcoming Naked Gun reboot) have his own Wiki article or be on the same article as Frank Drebin? 2402:800:6172:6C13:B071:12FA:9A9D:27F (talk) 02:34, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

Have you tried posing this at the Frank Drebin talk page? Or at the The Naked Gun (2025 film) talk page? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:13, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

It will depend totally on whether the character eventually becomes Wikinotable, which I suspect is unlikely. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:30, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

See also, more specifically, WP:NFILMCHAR.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:19, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

April 29

Music in HarperCollins' Charmed Life Audiobook

Hi, I'm wondering whether the piece of music at the beginning of HarperCollins' Charmed Life audiobook can be identified, and whether it is available anywhere in full. The beginning of the audiobook is available here: https://www.audible.com.au/pd/Charmed-Life-Audiobook/B00FMWIQT8 Thank you! Vergeskye (talk) 06:12, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

For identifying pieces of music, Musipedia is very good. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:32, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Shazam also (often but not always) works for me.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:56, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Thank you! Vergeskye (talk) 14:28, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

You're not going to have much luck with this question unless you can post a link to the piece of music itself. --Viennese Waltz 08:53, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Do you have a link? I can find several audiobooks for publications with the title Charmed Life, but these are not published by HarperCollins. HarperCollins publishes several books with the title Charmed Life, for which I can find hardcopy and ebook editions, but no audiobooks.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:55, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

The piece of music is in the preview here: https://www.audible.com.au/pd/Charmed-Life-Audiobook/B00FMWIQT8 Vergeskye (talk) 14:28, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

That appears to be a pay site. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:21, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, the link you posted only works if you're a subscriber to the site. --Viennese Waltz 17:39, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Oh, sorry! Still, I seem to be able to access the preview without signing in, and the music is in the preview Vergeskye (talk) 00:22, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm seeing a full page of ads with no audio link. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:55, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not sure why that is. This link might be better: https://www.amazon.com.au/Charmed-Life-The-Chrestomanci-Series/dp/B00NPB4HT6/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&dib_tag=se&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.3dGFLL345GDPElhGUiH765MP7nwNTjO1yAXhlwEG3on43l3cWVfRQpzvtKmFinQekAZyXpYAAHCDgsAgqbUavtEqiMasV0jK5SiQGlli1OclHWjIbcMbV3pJs_iK0o6Yv4lKkvtJlbk3wlL3FoacTY2W3SbtjqW7oPHbjnKvTJP8NZt0ub8LAmLarpyj2mbIkP1hQz7AO8q8PgX1wyrN-COHppJ4xDDudKer3tZ9Ti-5LdfXjI-7U3w37baPJm07N2icfrqIGcNK2T-B95MuosNH5JoehCHka4lDlaLec08.xT5acvbja653cxmiRTstonwJRxt7gRMAcTVG5jte5OA&qid=1745968508&sr=8-2 Vergeskye (talk) 06:15, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

That takes me to an Amazon page advertising the book. If there's a place on that page to invoke audio, I'm not seeing it offhand. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:40, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Is the audiobook you have in mind this one? John M Baker (talk) 23:24, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one Vergeskye (talk) 00:18, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

I was able to hear the free preview, and it sounds to me like computer-generated dross. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:41, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Shazam gives "No Result".  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:26, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

April 30

Tannhauser overture

not a question
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
So, I entered the following search query into the evil search engine: Tannhauser overture played on "period instruments", hoping to be rewarded with such a performance on the 'tube. But Messrs Google & Co. replied with their "AI Overview": "The "Tannhäuser Overture" was not specifically written to be performed on period instruments. It's a Romantic-era work by Richard Wagner, and the instrumentation reflects that period, not earlier styles. While some interpretations and recordings may utilize period instruments or instruments that were used during Wagner's time, the piece wasn't originally intended for such instruments." Obviously certain instruments were in vogue at the time (1845, 180 years ago), and have been superseded by later versions. I reproduce this for your Entertainment™ and wonder how many people would be taken in by such an abysmally misleading diversion from the truth. MinorProphet (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2025 (UTC) Sadly, none of us possess a crystal ball, and have no way of telling how many people may be misled, today or in the future. But gods help us anyway. Joint Cry of Despair (talk) 13:16, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Why don't they start some of the Europe NFL games at 1 Eastern?

They wouldn't end that late, especially if they put them between European daylight savings end and American (1st Sunday 2am of November). They could put them on a Saturday 1pm after the 2nd Friday of December if they want them to be all alone to be special. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:08, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Starting at 1800 GMT? On a Saturday? You'd have all the fans trying to get to the stadium and battling on the transport routes against all the football fans going home after the 1645 final whistle. Then you'd be faced with thousands of people trying to get home late on a Saturday night (estimating that the game will finish around 9pm) adding to the already busy weekend night traffic with the police already stretched thin managing the existing games and the Saturday night revellers.

There are not many cities that would let all that happen. Nanonic (talk) 20:02, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

How's the Friday after the 4th Thursday of November? Or Sundays or Christmas? 1pm East US time would be 1800 British Summer Time (1700 GMT) then 1700 British Winter Time on the last Sunday of October to next Saturday inclusive then 1800 British Winter Time after that. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:07, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Friday at 1700 or 1800 means you'll be getting people in during rush hour and letting them out into the Friday night revellers. Sundays are the days when transport is infrequent and also subject to cancellation due to engineering works. Quite a lot of local services stop at 2000 on a Sunday which would see a lot of fans stranded. Christmas has a full football program AND reduced transport, that's why everyone hopes for a home game for Boxing Day and New Years Day.

I think my question to you is - what makes you think that they haven't already considered all this in coming up with the schedule? Nanonic (talk) 07:16, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I don't know much about sports schedules, but what European transport schedules (including engineering works) do on Sundays and holidays varies widely amongst countries. Transport may be available on Sunday evening, even at the same frequency as weekday evenings. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:22, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Again, what makes you think that they haven't already considered all this in coming up with the schedule? Nanonic (talk) 16:30, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

Also, when you have 80-90,000 people attending an event, the city tends to put resources into ensuring the event goes smoothly, supplying adequate security, services, and infrastructure. It isn't a surprise. London knows there will be three Sunday games in October this year. in less than two weeks, they will know the exact dates (even though I am certain they already know, but are not publicising it). 68.187.174.155 (talk) 19:09, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

NYC has special trains before+after games like Yankee Expresses, extra 4, B and D subways, Yankee specials that go where B, D & 4 trains usually don't go, and Mets superexpresses (skips more stations than the express track skips even though it's on it) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 07:26, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

I'm sure they considered all that but I didn't even know EPL's so concentrated on Saturday (our football's spread out with 1 game on Thursday night, high school games Friday night, college games Saturday, pro games till late evening (3 start time clusters) then 1 or 2 Monday Night Football games that don't start till about 20:15 ET. The other major sports play much more often than football so we're forced to handle 4 major sports every Saturday for over a month: late college football season & early pro hockey & pro+college basketball seasons. I suppose the Tube might be more stressed with so much football in the same London Saturday? Both our multiple NFL-team cities have both teams sharing 1 stadium & can't play the same day.

Even New Yorkers are jealous of European trains what is this stop at 20:00 you speak of? "Normally" every line (not every service) has service 24/7/365 & all 423x422 possible NYC subway station pairs can be done 24/7/365 though the wee hours only have 1 train per 20 minutes & engineering works will (if you're unlucky) make your trip include "closed-subway bypass bussing" (free from the subway agency) and/or more indirect routing and/or more transfers and/or somewhat more walking. It'll take decades of past & future extra engineering works before decades of deffered maintenance are fully healed. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:15, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Just a comment that scheduling of games is often based on maximising expected television audiences, not the convenience of physical fans. HiLo48 (talk) 00:09, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

The Europe games that start 9:30am Eastern time/6:30am Pacific/4:30am Hawaii-Aleutian time (even America's second largest city sometimes needs to wake up 6:30am to watch a hometown team) DO NOT maximize TV audiences. The 3 start time windows (1 Eastern, and approximately when the 1st+2nd window games end are set for the convenience of Americans though. It's perhaps a bit inconvenient to watch Monday Night Football games that start 20:15 Eastern (they used to start 20:30) at the stadium then go home instead of already being home & have go to work or school the next morning. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:27, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

May 4

Dogtooth (film)

Image:Dogtooth(2009)_poster.jpg

The title Dogtooth of the 2009 Yorgos Lanthimos film clearly refers to the canine teeth: The (adult) children are told they are ready to leave home when they lose their first permanent canine (dogtooth).

Now, the theatrical release poster of the film appears to show a “dogtooth wave”. Basic mathematical waveforms include the sine wave, the triangular wave, the square wave, and the sawtooth wave. It’s tempting to play with the words and imagine a “dogtooth wave” (sounds a lot like “sawtooth wave”) shaped like two canine teeth pointing in opposite directions. And surely this is what the filmmakers are doing?

Indeed, in the release poster, a waveform very worthy of the “dogtooth wave” name appears in the same diagram as a sine-like wave. Surely this is intentional? Any references to confirm? --Andreas Rejbrand (talk) 23:53, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

I Googled dogtooth poster explained and was told (among other things) "The Dogtooth poster, designed by Vasilis Marmatakis, features three intersecting lines, representing the distorted views of the film's protagonists, and a lot of negative space. This design choice is a visual representation of the characters' skewed perception of the world, a key theme in the film, according to an interview with Marmatakis. The lines also subtly evoke the shape of a dog's teeth, nodding to the film's title, according to Pixartprinting." Shantavira|^{feed me} 13:20, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

May 6

Emergency addresses

Been watching Emergency on METV and wondering if the addresses and cross streets were real. -- DMc75771

I've never seen the show. Do you know what city it's set in? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:42, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

Is it a reality show? In which case the streets are real. (I doubt they would broadcast people's real addresses.) Or is it Emergency! which is fiction?Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:44, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

The exterior shots of Emergency! were filmed on real streets, but the street names used in the series are generally fictional. For more, see Emergency! § Setting.  ​‑‑Lambiam 10:35, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

If it's on METV, then it is indeed Emergency!. Julie London was part of the main cast. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:40, 6 May 2025 (UTC)

April 22

Western (USA numerology systems)

I want to know how Western USA systems define lucky number vs unlucky number. Because I was informed repeatedly 13 is superstition in Western culture, and 4 is superstition for Asians. I want to know is there other lucky numbers single digits lucky for western (USA systems). For Western or USA system is 0, 1, 2, 5 lucky? Because alot of people in USA dislike the number 6. I want to know is 8 or 9 lucky in Western or USA system because for Asians 8 are known as favorites, because 4 is only superstition for Asians for Western is 4 a good number? 2600:8802:B0A:5900:19BD:1815:9055:233F (talk) 03:33, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/astrology/what-are-the-basics-of-numerology/articleshow/105537229.cms https://www.numerology.com/articles/about-numerology/western-chinese-numerology/ Providing Reference links I went to Google New tech is they have Al's view took alot of time to research relevant information 2600:8802:B0A:5900:19BD:1815:9055:233F (talk) 03:35, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Besides 13 being unlucky, Western traditions about specific lucky and unlucky numbers are not nearly as strong as they are in Asia. In my experience people pick their own lucky numbers which are personal to them. Judaism has traditions about specific numbers that would be more comparable to Asia, see Significance of numbers in Judaism. Pinguinn 🐧 03:51, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Some information about numerological aversions in various cultures can be found in Triskaidekaphobia § Similar phobias.  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:11, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Cultural references are what makes numbers lucky or unlucky. The number 4 in Mandarin (and multiple other Asian languages) has nearly the same pronunciation as the word Death. Both are pronounced Si with a falling tone. Death should have a slight rising tone at the end, but in common speach, you might lose it and conversations would sound like: "How many are here for dinner tonight?" "Death."

It is commonly believed that in Christian cultures, the number 7 is lucky and the number 13 is unlucky due to Biblical references. In the Bible, 7 is used for good thing like God resting on the seventh day. That concept extends to marijuana. If 7 is a lucky "spiritual" number, than any plant that has seven leaves must be a miracle cure for everything. 13 is used for bad things such as Judas being the thirteenth person at the Last Supper. Similarly, 6 is unlucky because it is part of the number 666, which is identified as the number of the beast.

Every culture can have numbers appear for one reason or another and then have meaning attributed to them. The number 69 will easily get giggles because it is a refrence to a sexual practice. So, simplifying, 69 equals sex. For a long time (fading from prominence now), the number 42 was popular among many people because it was referenced in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy as the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything. The actual question was left unknown. I personally find it interesting to look at how culture affects the meaning of numbers. Some things you might want to search for: Why is 87 unlucky in Australia? Why is 3 lucky in Russia? Why is 8 unlucky in India? Why is 8 lucky in Hawaii?

Don't confuse a personal favorite number with a cultural lucky or unlucky number. John Lennon considered the number 9 to be lucky and, as such, forced it to be prominent in his life. That doesn't meant that all of Western culture finds it lucky. It isn't especially lucky amongst the British. It has no special meaning throughout Liverpool. It was just one guy's preference. But, what if John's attempts to make 9 an important number in culture through means such as making a "song" in which he repeats "Number 9" over and over ended up working. People started saying "9" to mean "I am in the know and I am using the number 9 to indicate that I am special" just as everyone who usees 42 or celebrates on May the 4th? Then, over time, the source of the popularity would fade and people would begin asking why 9 is considered lucky. Then, surely, someone would look for anything related to 9 in the Bible and it would be yet another Biblically-sourced lucky number. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 17:55, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

Electronic bagpipes

Dear ladies and gentlemen, On the page "Electronic bagpipes" you refer (among other subjects) to some OpenPipe project. When clicking on that name, we are informed that there is NO page with that title, and having tried to open the provided link [ref. 8], the result was devastatingly shocking: It proved to be a link to https://tanjungmaspermata.com/. I kindly invite you to visit my website (www.bagpipedia.nl), in which ALL my links function as expected. I hope that you'll be able to correct the present link [ref.8], thus enabling us to check the source of the term "OpenPipe". Kind regards, Wiebe Stodel. Wiebe Stodel (talk) 07:40, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

OpenPipe used to be here: [40] but that blog hasn't been updated since 2012. If openpipe.cc has been taken over by something else, I suspect the project has died. In any case, blogs like that don't seem like reliable sources we should be using on electronic bagpipes. Good luck with your bagpipe-focussed encyclopedia. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:46, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

PS, you can check out the old page on archive.org here [41]. It seems to be defunct since ~2018. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:51, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

April 23

How to create a new page

Hi! There are instructions on how to edit an existing page but no instructions on how to create a new page! Could you please advise me how to create a page, what is the review process etc.? kind regards, Atiqul Atiq10 (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

There are plenty of instructions. See WP:YFA. --Viennese Waltz 17:26, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

You have no user page for your At1q10 account. If you had one, its url would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Atiq10. (On mobile devices there is an extra m.) If you click this link, you will see a message that Wikipedia does not have a page with this exact name, but also a link that you can click to start editing the page. If you then save it (and you have the right to create new pages), it has been created. This works basically with any page name. If you discover that seachickens are an important topic that deserve an article, you can create it by going to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seachicken and clicking Start the Seachicken article. This is only advisable if you know the Wikipedia rules and guidelines quite well; otherwise your new article will likely be deleted and your effort will be wasted. For newcomers wishing to contribute an article it is better to follow the road suggested by WP:YFA.  ​‑‑Lambiam 22:51, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

One approach is to create a draft of an article on your PC as a text document, and write it to fit the rules in YFA. Once it looks good, you could create the article in Wikipedia in one fell swoop, i.e. copy and paste. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:51, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

That's how I've always done it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:36, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

The ugly truth is that, if you don't yet know how to do it, you're not ready to do it. Start by improving other articles and learn the ropes. Add a few references to an article that needs them, copyedit an article that's too short or too long, add interwiki links where appropriate, whatever makes articles a bit better. A very high percentage of first articles are terrible and get deleted almost immediately, which dissuades people from trying again. Start slow. Matt Deres (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

April 26

500 ruble note from 1912

This is apparently a picture of a 500 ruble note of the Russian empire from 1912. Why is there so much empty space on the right-hand side of the paper? JIP | Talk 12:19, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

It's for a security feature. The 'blank' area contains a watermark, visible when the banknote is backlit: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/note203912.html. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:25, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

The image file history shows that it is a 1614x731 reduced scan by User:Roman Poulvas from an 8094x4802 image uploaded by prolific Wikimedia Commons User_talk:Vizu. The change in format for the reduced scan is the cause of the large right-hand blank area, that is not on the earlier image. Philvoids (talk) 13:25, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

The original image was inappropriately cropped to remove the 'blank' part of the banknote. The newer image is not an error or an artifact of the scan; it restores a part of the note that's missing in the original image. The comment on the newer upload - with the full note - is "Образец банкноты (ОБРАЗЕЦЪ) с полем водяного знака": according to Google translate, "Banknote sample (SAMPLE) with watermark field". TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:33, 26 April 2025 (UTC)

For interest, downloading and manipulating the image can make the watermark more visible: it appears to be an enlargement of the portrait in the oval, with what might be a banner crossing the lower right portion thus ( _/>). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 01:42, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

This is correct and visible on ruble notes offered on [~ 1912 Russia 500 Rubles - 5 Crisp Consecutive Notes - Peter The Great Portrait | eBay ]. No effort is made in the Numista catalog to show the watermark which is therefore invisible. Thank you TenOfAllTrades for your response that coincided with my less correct one, now struck through. Philvoids (talk) 11:22, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Scroll down just a little bit on the Numista catalog page I linked. The watermark is clearly displayed. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 11:36, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Rubbing the tip of a pencil on a piece of paper held flat above a coin you should get an image of the coin engraving with a rendering reasonably akin to the effect given by most watermarks when they are lit - using a banknote for the paper was the kind of horrendous tricks children could do - back then. --Askedonty (talk) 21:43, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

I'm old enough to remember when French Francs had big white spaces for the watermark. DuncanHill (talk) 21:57, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

A French tenner

April 28

The San Francisco Chronicle and the Reciprocity Treaty

I am trying to follow the history of the Reciprocity Treaty of 1875 and the position of the San Francisco Chronicle. Industrialist Claus Spreckels had originally opposed it, and the Chronicle appears to have upheld his position to protect the California sugar beet market. But Spreckels changed his mind in 1876, but as far as I can tell, the Chronicle did not. Much later, Spreckels's son purchased The San Francisco Call, and the sugar industry began to exert enormous influence in SF, even bringing down the mayor in the San Francisco graft trials. But back to my point: why did it appear that the Chronicle was continuing to take a position for tariffs when the industry had changed in California and no longer supported it? Viriditas (talk) 23:37, 28 April 2025 (UTC)

I found this additional tidbit: "The San Francisco Chronicle in particular printed much material about Norwegian "slavery" in Hawaii, no doubt with the purpose of building up hostility to the Hawaiian sugar industry and thus towards the Reciprocity Treaty, [for] there were many in the United States, including southern planters and New York and California refiners, who were harmed rather than benefited by the Hawaiian sugar boom and wished to see the Treaty abrogated." Viriditas (talk) 00:24, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

The problem with this explanation (Davis 1962), is it doesn't hold up. The New York sugar industry had lost most of its power by 1880, and Spreckels had the monopoly on sugar production in California. So why was the Chronicle still opposed to the treaty? It isn't clear who they were defending. Viriditas (talk) 00:27, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

I think that it is important to separate opinions about sugar production and sugar refining. Southern farmers were producing sugar which would be in direct competition with Hawaiian sugar. Refiners in New York, the South, and California were not competing with incoming sugar. They wanted cheap sugar to refine. However, the closest route from Hawaii was to San Francisco, reducing supply costs only for those refineries. To add to the complication, Spreckles, whome you mention, was heavily invested in Hawaiian sugar production. It is most beneficial to him to have free trade of cheap sugar from Hawaii (his personal plantations) to San Fancisco (his refineries). 68.187.174.155 (talk) 17:52, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. As luck would have it, I just learned that scholar Merze Tate (1905–1996) studied this question in Hawaii: Reciprocity Or Annexation (1968), and devotes an entire chapter to it (Chapter 6: "Treaty in Jeopardy"). It's free to read online if you are interested.[42] I'm reading it now. Viriditas (talk) 21:42, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Wow. I just finished it. I don't think there's any other source out there that covers the subject with such breadth, representing almost every major viewpoint. One thing that isn't explored as much as it should be, is the role of M. H. de Young. He seems to take a populist POV which was inevitably proven correct by history, but was defeated by the immense historical forces at work. The reciprocity treaty led to higher sugar prices on the West Coast and poor labor conditions for workers on Hawaii sugar plantations to the detriment of both Southern and East Coast planters. But the U.S. government was committed to the annexation of Hawaii for regional and strategic interests and would not deviate from that plan (and their single-minded commitment towards that goal is frankly astounding given the long controversy and public disapproval). In between all of this, Tate makes an interesting side argument: even though the treaty didn't benefit the U.S. government directly and hurt the purchasing power of consumers, weakened worker's rights (before annexation, after which it became stronger), and damaged domestic production of sugar beets (and Southern and East Coast production), the treaty strengthened the infrastructure for shipping and distribution (we would see this eventually turn to tourism and militarism). Viriditas (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

Governments pushing through controversial policies with no public support to serve the "national interest" – however and whatever this may be determined to be – is a recurring theme that should not be astounding to the student of history.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:22, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

April 30

x or + head tack tail

I'm trying to identify the origin of an old chair and footstool pulled out of storage. I know it predates 1895 when it was put into storage. The unique feature is that the nails (tack nails?) have x or + heads on them. They are not round circles. Is there a name for this type of nail? 68.187.174.155 (talk) 11:58, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

"Clavo" or "clavo nail" is a general term for a nail with a decorative head. Some of them have heads shaped like crosses. For example [43] [44]. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about? CodeTalker (talk) 17:32, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Yes. The ones on this furniture are more pointed (a bigger gap between the points), but with the term "clavo", I can do a better job of identifying manufacturers who many have supplied the furniture without leaving a proper brand on the underside.

And thank you. I very quickly identified the nails as being of Chinese origin and then I found that they marked their furniture in a different way and I found the craftsman markings at the joints to indicate which parts connect where. Therefore, it is very likely that this set is of Chinese origin, which helps identify the source. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 17:58, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

May 1

How to get supporters for cause?

I am trying to get an Auntie Anne”s open in Glasgow or the surrounding area. How do I find people who want the same thing? I’m getting very frustrated due to the lack of locations near me.

Also, why do they keep opening locations in the South of England? We need one up here badly are we are surely more important than down there?

I appreciate all of your kind words. Thank you. Pablothepenguin (talk) 10:00, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Haven't we been over this before with you? Last time it was frozen yoghurt, this time it's pretzels. The answers that you received last time will also pertain to this question. --Viennese Waltz 10:59, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

It is a bit different this time, to be fair. I’m now prioritising a business that already is established in the UK. Also, any ideas about my second question?Pablothepenguin (talk) 11:30, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Maybe more people in the south of England like pretzels than they do in Scotland. --Viennese Waltz 13:00, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

And of course there are many more people in the South of England than in Scotland (approx 28 million v 5¹/₂ million). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 13:06, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

We still have more people than any city except London Pablothepenguin (talk) 13:25, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

I think Birmingham is bigger, "the second-largest city in Britain"; 1,157,603 in 2022 against 622,820 for Glasgow? Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I was referring to the 5.5 million in Scotland being bigger than any English City other than London. Pablothepenguin (talk) 17:05, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I thought we liked pretzels? Pablothepenguin (talk) 13:26, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Have you contacted the company about opening a franchise somewhere near you? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:51, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Yes Pablothepenguin (talk) 15:40, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

It doesn't take "people" to open a franchise. It takes a person to open a franchise. You can be that person. If you refuse to be that person, you have to wait for another person to do it. It isn't hard to do. That is the point of a franchise. You agree to open a franchise. They help you get the business loan. They help you get your location. They help you remodel it as necessary. They provide you with supplies, uniforms, manuals, etc... Done. You have a franchise. 68.187.174.155 (talk) 17:27, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

The tricky part is finding that person. I’m trying to get the word out to people who could do it. Pablothepenguin (talk) 18:06, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Why not you? What's holding you back? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:44, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Money mostly, but also time commitment. I’m too busy with studying and I’ve got a lot of music-related things I’d like to work on. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:07, 1 May 2025 (UTC)

Heed the wise words of the English philosopher Sir Michael Philip Jagger. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 06:45, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

Not helpful Pablothepenguin (talk) 09:45, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

As noted above, getting supporters for your cause is unlikely to be helpful. What is needed are potential franchisees. I don't think we can offer better help finding these than we did last year for the frozen yoghurt. Apparently, the company is keen on finding franchisees for Scotland. For the answer to your second question, we can only speculate. .  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:36, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

May 2

Join the AI revolution

Why not join in the revolution? Why isn't there an AI Wiki Bot that has been trained on Wiki knowledge (the mother of all LLLMs)? 2603:7080:6C3B:5E2B:A50F:E3B0:4C22:DFE0 (talk) 06:30, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

The first question is not a question for the reference desk. As to the second one, the content on which the LLM's on the leaderboard have been trained includes all of Wikipedia's content. This does not keep them from hallucinating.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:26, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

A revolution would most likely impede the care and feeding of Wikipedia, so no thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:09, 3 May 2025 (UTC)

I suspect it would be harder to find an LLM whose training set excluded Wikipedia content. Sesquilinear (talk) 22:00, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Because we want facts, not computer generated fantasies. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:33, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

May 4

Recreating shipping route

Obviously, this isn't the best map, and Belize has nothing to do with this, but I'm working with what I have right now. If you have a better map, great. I want to chart the route the bark Beta took from Drammen, Norway, to Maui, Hawaii, from 1880 to 1881. The only info I've found so far, was that it was around 15,000 nautical miles (I think, that could be wrong), it left Drammen on October 27, 1880, traveled through the North Sea, then the Atlantic, traveled down towards Cape Horn of South America, but took a shortcut through the narrow Strait of Magellan, traveled up to Chile for provisions in Valparaíso, then headed straight to Maui where they arrived on February 18, 1881. I want to approximate this route on this or a similar map, but I'm not sure how to calculate it to the closest approximation or how to even figure it out. ChatGPT can't figure it out either. Any idea how to approach this problem? Viriditas (talk) 02:05, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

There are other known dates if that helps. The Beta made it through the Strait of Magellan to the other side around December 25, 1880. Viriditas (talk) 02:13, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

We'd need the ship's logbook for an accurate determination of it's route. We can't do much better than assuming that, while in the open seas, the ship followed segments of a great circle, being the shortest route between points on a globe. Take a map of the Earth in gnomonic projection, centred on, say, Bogotá, and draw the shortest sea route from Drammen around Cape Horn to Maui on this map (so large portions of this route are straight lines on the map). Then use suitable map projections to display this route on a map of any desired type, like a hemisphere of the globe in orthographic projection as above (with the ports of departure and arrival both almost on the edge). Since the dominant directions are more north—south than east—west and cross the equator, a reasonable approximation can also be based on loxodromic navigation, the commonly used method before navigation by chronometer became feasible. Just use a Mercator map instead of a gnomonic map.  ​‑‑Lambiam 07:31, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

There are world maps of lighthouse locations. 19th Century sailors would prefer to divide a long voyage into straight legs whose ends could be confirmed by sight of a lighthouse. This suggests a way to estimate a likely route, though you must limit it to lighthouses that were operational in 1880 - 1881. See Lists of lighthouses. Philvoids (talk) 08:09, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, both. But wasn’t the Cape Horn route well known and traveled by the 1880s, with all the trade between the Kingdom of Hawaii and Europe by that time? I was under the impression the route should be easy to find. Viriditas (talk) 08:11, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Kuykendall (1953) indicates that this was a seasonal mail route in the early to mid-19th century for letters between Hawaii and Europe. Viriditas (talk) 08:49, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

The route was well known, but that doesn't make it easy to find. The sea looks pretty much the same everywhere. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:36, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Apologies for the confusion. I'm talking about finding the route to draw a line on a map on my end for an article about the subject, not the ease of navigating the route. Viriditas (talk) 00:25, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

It is not implausible the ship sailed by Madeira or the Canary Islands and next the Cape Verde islands, but otherwise the ship either had to more-or-less hug the coastlines (the west coast of Europe, the coast of Brazil from Recife to Rio de Janeiro and the coast around Cape Horn) anyway, or, between Rio de Janeiro and Cape Horn and on the segments leading across the equator, cross a wide expanse of ocean without a lighthouse in sight.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:29, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Great circles are shortest, loxodromes are easier. Navigating by loxodrome, you only have to keep track of direction; on great circles, you have to keep track of two factors out of direction, speed, latitude and longitude. On this voyage, the difference in distance is small. Astronomical navigation is nice, but depends on seeing the stars (or at least the sun). From Drammen to Spain in late autumn and through the Strait of Magellan and along the southern Chilean coast, clouds are all but guaranteed.

The Strait of Magellan is a shortcut, but the frequent headwinds and limited room for tacking don't make it very convenient. The alternative is worse though: the Drake Passage is one of the roughest seas on earth. It's almost impossible to pass westbound by sailing ship and if you succeed, you want to turn north ASAP, but how do you know you passed it if you can't determine your longitude under overcast skies? The Strait of Magellan is just safer. Similarly along the Chilean coast up to 47°S, the open ocean may be slightly faster, but is very rough, so one could opt for the fjords instead.

So, great circles or loxodromes approximating the shortest route, with some deviations for more convenient winds or to avoid dangerous waters. Drammen to Finistère has variable wind, mostly from the west. One could tack or just wait a few days for the wind to turn; much easier and only takes a little time.

According to Den Helder weather station (data available from KNMI), the wind was on 27 October 1880 easterly, first weak but increasing to a wind pressure of 15 kgf/m². I think that's 15 m/s in modern units. In the night to the 28th, the wind turned south and remained strong, from late evening on the 28th until the morning of the 29th the wind was SW, slowing to 6 m/s, but in the afternoon the wind turned NNW and increased to 24 m/s, a strong gale. During the following night, the wind turned W and slowly weakened. I assume that by then the ship had left the area.

From Finistère to the Costa de la Muerte the wind gets slightly more convenient, wind direction is even better towards the Canary Islands. Then passing Cape Bojador, once the point of no return for sailing ships along the Western Saharan coast, the NE trade wind and ocean current pick up and push the ship to the doldrums near Fernando de Noronha. High temperatures in the interior of South America in the southern summer cause a low-pressure area, turning the normal SE trade winds to NE, helping the ship to near Porto Alegre. After passing the southern horse latitudes, the winds turn mostly west (not too bad) and pick up, as the ship nears the Strait of Magellan. The wind is variable, but mostly westerly, in the strait, but after that the ship can turn north. Strong westerly winds make it hard to head for the open ocean straight away, so one hugs the coast to Valparaiso as winds gradually turn south. Valparaiso is also convenient for resupply. Follow the SE trade winds, but one may wish to stay slightly NE of the great circle route. Cross the doldrums again near the Galápagos Islands, then turn WNW (better than NNW on the great circle from Cape Horn), using the NE trade winds to Hawaii. It's about 16000 nautical miles, barely more than the absolute shortest route, and mostly broad reach.

If you can find a diary of a traveller or, even better, the official logbook, that would be good, but otherwise you can't get a much more detailed description than my guess above. PiusImpavidus (talk) 19:35, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for putting so much time into that. Viriditas (talk) 22:48, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

@PiusImpavidus: I forgot to note, this route was traveled by at least five known ships from 1880 to 1883: Two ships, the Beta (1880) and the Musca (1880), left from Drammen, Norway; three ships, the Cedar (sometimes spelled Ceder, 1881), the Ioloni (1882), and the Ehrenfels (1883), left from Bremen, Germany. My understanding is that they all took similar routes. I wonder if any of these logs are available. The Bremen article says "Norddeutscher Lloyd (NDL), founded in Bremen in 1857, became one of the world's leading shipping companies." Another book I'm looking at says they reduced the transit time from 4-6 months to only 2 using steamship propulsion, which other articles say began in 1870, but likely didn't take off until the late 19th century? This question dovetails with another article I've been working on and off concerning pineapple mania, which was said to diminish with the rise of steamship transportation, which made the pineapple accessible to everyone instead of a luxury item. In any case, the steamer Ehrenfels took two months to travel from Bremen to Kauai, which saved a lot of lives, but a measles epidemic onboard still killed around 50 people, mostly children. Viriditas (talk) 23:47, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

@Viriditas: are we talking about the barque Beta built in 1864 as Sir John Lawrence? Are you intending to write an article? Mjroots (talk) 08:30, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for that. There's a lot of conflicting and hard to find info, so it's not clear that it's the same ship. You can see another version here. That Beta is said to be 846 tons rather than the 879 grt in your Beta, but I'm not sure that's meaningful. Maybe you can look into it? Very little is known abut that ship. Whereas, there is much more known about the German ships. I couldn't access the sjohistorie.no link. Viriditas (talk) 08:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

@Viriditas: Try accessing sjøhistorie via the link at WP:SHIPS/R#Country specific sources. Enter Beta in the search box, then look for the entry under "Bark Beta bygget 1864" (7th one down for me). Mjroots (talk) 09:24, 5 May 2025 (UTC)

Ah, yes. That's it. I think you found her. Viriditas (talk) 09:27, 5 May 2025 (UTC)