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April 12

Why do British coins not have names?

Before decimalisation, many British coins had names: penny, shilling, florin, half-crown, crown. But all the modern UK coinage is named simply after the amount it's worth. Why don't the coins have names?

Maybe it's too soon for the names to have developed? But it's been well over fifty years.

It can't be because decimal currency is inherently more complicated, since all the common US coins have names: penny, nickel, dime, quarter.

We still have the penny in the UK. The rest are generally called 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p, pound, and two pounds. --TrogWoolley (talk) 04:31, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

So, why? Marnanel (talk) 03:21, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not just the UK: here in Australia the coins are called 2-dollar, 1-dollar, 50-cent, 20-cent, 10-cent, and 5-cent, and before they were removed from common circulation, I believe the smallest coins were called 2-cent and 1-cent. By the way, note that "dime" is a legal term with historic roots — the coin says "ONE DIME", a term first used (although with a different spelling) by the Coinage Act of 1792. Nyttend (talk) 03:45, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Penny, shilling, and florin were names associated with the amounts they were worth. The relevant coins were worth one penny, one shilling, and one florin, respectively (although florin was more of an experiment than the other two). Crown is perhaps the exception, originally created to be part of the European silver system and I presumed named because they initially had a crown on them. However, it became a word indicating the amount it's worth, hence, half-crown, worth half the crown. From these base coins of particular values, other coins were created to describe their relation to these values: half-penny, twopence, and others including the aforementioned half-crown. The current coins have names in the exact same way, there is the penny, and there is the pound. Other coins take their names by their relation to those two values. The difference between the older system and the current one is that the current decimal system has fewer base units of currency, ie. the decimal system is less complicated. (In East Africa, they retained the Shilling instead of the Pound as their primary unit of currency, so that name continues to also carry a meaning of the amount it's worth.) American coins are also mostly named after their values. A penny retains the original meaning of one penny, only the language has shifted to replace "penny" in other contexts with "cent". "Dime" as Nyttend mentions is also named due to its value, it comes from the Latin for "one-tenth". A quarter is, well, a quarter of a dollar; its meaning hasn't even been lost due to language change. "Nickel", like "crown", is the exception that was given a new name. CMD (talk) 04:33, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you mean exactly about the American penny. The "official" name, as I understand it, is and has always been "cent". Colloquially it is called the penny, by analogy to the British coin. --Trovatore (talk) 20:54, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't we discussing colloquial names? CMD (talk) 10:35, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I had trouble working out just what you meant by American coins are also mostly named after their values. A penny retains the original meaning of one penny, only the language has shifted to replace "penny" in other contexts with "cent". Feel free to explain if you like, or not; we've probably already taken up more space than justified. --Trovatore (talk) 21:39, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if it was unclear. I meant that the colloquial name the coin retained (penny) once referred to an actual value, and was retained even when the value name was changed (as you note) to cent. It's a holdover of the older (colonial) context. CMD (talk) 11:13, 16 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Dime comes more directly from French dîme (archaic disme), by the way. —Tamfang (talk) 04:55, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

More precisely, both English dime and modern French dîme come from Old French disme, from Latin decimus, "one tenth". In Anglo-Norman, the form was still disme. ‑‑Lambiam 06:17, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be that the coins are worth so little it's not worth the effort? In Queen Victoria's day a four pence piece, a "groat" or "joey" was worth 2 pounds 17 pence in today's money. 2A01:4B00:B70B:B000:C941:3EA9:3C9D:B273 (talk) 14:20, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not forgetting the farthing, worth a quarter of a penny, now equivalent to just over 13.5 pence. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:11, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As in the penny-farthing... But also not forgetting half farthing, third farthing and quarter farthing! Bob Tanner 123 (talk) 19:55, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I never knew about those. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:37, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Farthings are another coin named after their value, being a fourth (fourthing) of a penny. A quarter farthing is some sort of etymological joke. CMD (talk) 02:00, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it should have been a demisemifarthing. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 16:49, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Or a farfarthing. Reminds me of A Tale of Two Cities. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:14, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You owe me three farthings, say the bells of St Martins. Doesn't rhyme for me. Does it rhyme for anyone? I'm currently re-reading Nineteen Eighty-Four so it's in my head a little. I never really got why Orwell thought it was important to mention and am looking out to see if I can figure it out this time. --Trovatore (talk) 20:19, 13 April 2025 (UTC) [reply]

A Cockney would probably drop the "g" in fathings, so farthins/Martins is a pretty close rhyme. I can't, nearly forty years after reading it for O-level, remember why Orwell uses Oranges and Lemons in 1984, I think it might be something to do with the proles retaining some pre-IngSoc culture, lost to those above them. DuncanHill (talk) 21:28, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It would be closer to faavins/Maa'ins in Cockney. Non-rhotic, glottal stop etc. Definitely rhymes. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:02, 13 April 2025 (UTC) [reply]

Not a direct answer as to the reason, but Coins of the pound sterling#Slang and everyday usage details the informal names of pre-decimalisation coins and the limited extent to which some have carried over to the decimal era. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible there just hasn't been enough time for informal names to develop? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:59, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Someone could probably spin some OR about how the modern fiat currency system is fundamentally different from a metal-based system regarding the long term stability of individual coin values, and thus of their importance as individual units rather than as parts of a wider currency system. CMD (talk) 01:58, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the reason is that so few things on sale today cost under a pound. In the “old days” it was handy to have names for coins because lots of things cost “Ninepence” or “Three shillings tuppence” etc. Blueboar (talk) 16:58, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Good Old Days? I'll have two tickets for the one-and-nines, please! Martinevans123 (talk) 10:42, 15 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hirohito's Mercedes

Some sources say that Hirohito's Mercedes-Benz 770 had a golden imperial seal in place of Mercedes' hood emblem, but the only such examples I found are collectible toy models as his surviving car displays Mercedes' hood logo - ~~while also lacking blue sun visor of those toy models.~~ What happened actually to the golden emblem? Brandmeister^talk 14:25, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I found this photo which is a crop of a photo (watermarked "This image is copyrighted...") that suggests that it was taken in Japan at a site that looks as it were an Imperial Palace. [Edit: the photo was taken at Edo Castle's Yagura tower turret, which is part of the Imperial Palace complex -- as seen here] There seems to be enough discrepencies to make me suspect that the museum example could be a ~~fake~~ replica. 136.56.165.118 (talk) 20:05, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A lengthy discussion with my friendly neighborhood AI chatbot, concluded:

However, as you pointed out, certain elements of the original vehicle—namely the Imperial Seal of Japan on the radiator grille and hood ornament—appear to be absent or replaced in the museum exhibit. The missing badge and hood ornament may reflect deliberate modifications to align with contemporary sensitivities regarding the display of symbols tied to Imperial Japan's wartime era. Such adjustments could be intended to focus on the automobile's historical and engineering significance rather than its political symbolism.

Make of it as you will. --136.56.165.118 (talk) 20:42, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are some things I noticed on closer examination: The Imperial Chrysanthemum symbol on the front is affixed to the headlight bar rather than directly on the radiator grill. Also, the sun visor is visible in both photos; the camera angle and visor positioning makes it hard to discern. The mysterious bulb-shaped objects on the roof differ: in the contemporaneous photo, they are chromed, and in the museum photo they are black. What are they; they don't look like they could function as lights or signal indicators; but, could they be blackout lights? Mini sirens? --136.56.165.118 (talk) 22:13, 12 April 2025 (UTC) Edit: 04:16, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

According to this Russian source I found, after WWII the car remained in the imperial garage, then in 1961, through the Mercedes-Benz agency in Japan, it was sent to Europe where it was renovated and in 1979 put on exhibition in the Mercedes museum. This implies it's the same car, but still one may wonder why they stripped the radiator grille imperial emblem while retaining it on the rear doors (and seemingly replaced those bulb-shaped roof objects). Brandmeister^talk 08:53, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The roof objects are likely not replaced, but are simply not chrome-plated. Given enough time, silver and its alloys tarnish forming a black patina from oxidation. Modocc (talk) 10:35, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it was considered lèse-majesté in Japan (where the Emporer's status is carefully guarded) to keep such a symbol on the car when it is no longer owned or in use by the Emporer? -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 12:38, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me that Mercedes took it upon themselves to "restore" the car's hood with its marketing trinket. Had it simply been a status issue then I'd expect the removal of all the imperial emblems. I'm also wondering what's on the roof. They have star patterns. Maybe they are fancy night lights, spot lights and/or speakers. I haven't a clue. Modocc (talk) 13:31, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian article has a close-up photo of one mystery object. It could be a signal indicator light having frosted glass and dark tint. I could imagine it being designed to be unobtrusive under normal circumstances, and flashing red (or some other color) when needed. Google translation of the Russian article indicated no mention of them in the text. --136.56.165.118 (talk) 13:55, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Just a guess, but fancy lights would make it obvious to cheering crowds which car was the emperor's in a motorcade. Alansplodge (talk) 11:34, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What's the best dollar index?

Not the most popular one (dollar Index even redirects there). Other indices have more currencies & weights that haven't been unchanged since March 1973. Why didn't they extend one of the later-invented ones to 1973 without rescaling to 100=1973 & switch to that? Investors are used to rescaling anyway: stock splits move y-axes. Are they still trading futures with these obsolete weights? 57.6% euro, 77.3% Europe. Why not add more currencies? Shouldn't they know how much USA imports+exports with everyone, all 200+ GDPs & have tech cheap enough to do every currency even though the graph wouldn't change much? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:27, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

By what measure do you judge the goodness of a dollar index? In other words, what is your dollar index index? ‑‑Lambiam 07:32, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How do I know I'm not an economist? Is the one that says it's best cause it weights by GDP the best? Sounds true but wouldn't that underweight some currencies like Canadian $+overweight others like isolationist USA-hating ones? Also which GDP nominal or PPP? I'm guessing nominal would be better for this? Is it the one that says weighting by amount of trade with US is the best cause it's the thing you want instead of a proxy like GDP? Sounds true but isn't trade only 1 important cause of currency exchange some people also exchange currency to buy US bonds, pay hotels etc? Also isn't oil bought in dollars by countries that don't use USD? And central banks+speculators sometimes trade currencies. Those would affect dollar+other currencies' supply & demand thus the exchange rate without any direct US trade occurring. Does transhipment count as trade? What if the box is only becoming a truck trailer in 1 currency zone but the goods will be sold+used in another? What if a leader wants an iPad but has to smuggle it from another country cause his is sanctioned which currency pair does that count as? Is geometric mean better than arithmetic? Presumably they all divide weights by the currency cost@base yr before using them so yen+bucks are both 100@index=100 not like 0.006+1? Also I don't understand all the math in the most complex one. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:28, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of the U.S. dollar index is to provide a benchmark for comparing the value of the U.S. dollar with other major currencies, which in 1973 included the euro, yen, pound sterling, Canadian dollar, Swedish krona, and Swiss franc. Today, in addition to the US dollar, the major currency markets are still trading the euro, Japanese yen, British pound, Canadian dollar and Swiss franc. Of course, you could argue why some of the Swedish krona couldn’t be replaced by the equally active Australian dollar in the market. However, as long as the market believes that the index still serves its original purpose, no one will be willing to change it. Stanleykswong (talk) 17:37, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I did wonder why there's no AUD. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

{[re|Stanleykswong}} The Euro did not exist in 1973. DuncanHill (talk) 22:29, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right. Euro replaced the German Mark, the French Franc and the Italian Lira in 1999. Stanleykswong (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Once a widely used index is established, it can be difficult to modify, especially if the index is being used internationally. Stanleykswong (talk) 08:49, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even if it's a national index, such as the Consumer Price Index, they won't change unless the index is so far removed from reality that it becomes completely unusable. The Consumer Price Index was last revised in 1978 to reflect changes in spending patterns based on the Consumer Expenditure Survey conducted from 1972 to 1974. Stanleykswong (talk) 09:01, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How the hell doesn't the CPI include smartphones? Does it overweight mechanical typewriters? How detailed is it? Does it include things most Americans don't buy like ostriches+subway fares? Is there a more accurate index that's less popular? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it makes sense either, but that's the way the world works. Stanleykswong (talk) 17:07, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That may be how the US works, but not the world. The UK CPI "basket" of goods and services is changed every year. Chuntuk (talk) 09:26, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're right, VR headsets, yoga mats and pool sliders were added to UK ‘inflation basket’ in 2025.^[1] Stanleykswong (talk) 09:37, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Was anything removed? Is music broken down by ecosystem (Apple, Android, CD, 78rpm etc)+genre? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 12:59, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

According to Guardian, local newspaper adverts and oven-ready gammon joints have been removed. Stanleykswong (talk) 18:38, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

My observation is that people do change their purchasing behavior to buy pulled pork instead of oven-ready gammon joints. I have no idea why oven-ready gammon joints were removed from the index and not replaced with pulled pork. Stanleykswong (talk) 18:40, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is the net effect to overestimate US CPI cause technology's awesome+America lives further out than they used to (on average) or to underestimate cause America drives a lot more than they used to or something like that (on average) & many things outpaced inflation like silver, gasoline, Treasury bonds, stocks, ultraluxury goods (at some points in the 70s (80s too?) ppl were amazed when a high square foot ultraluxury Manhattan condo sold for $1,000,000 in 2019 one sold for almost quarter billion) & many entertainments like big 4 sports tickets+ppl use less of non-Veblen goods when they outpace inflation & do the wronginesses mostly cancel each other out? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:03, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Does US or UK CPI try to accurately weigh illegal sales@time of weights i.e. weed+prostitution or does it only have legal goods+services? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:24, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Illegal sales are never transparent and it is impossible to know their prices and transaction volumes. Stanleykswong (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

If the latter how would a UK-style US CPI deal with things that are offered in big stores in some states illegal in others i.e. craps? Is the cost of gambling the cost of bets or the lesser sum the bets won? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:31, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Look for the answers to your Gish gallop of questions for yourself in the links from Consumer Price Index (United Kingdom) and United States Consumer Price Index. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 18:14, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The best dollar index is the one that gives insight into that part of economics that matters to you, or to your question. Are you concerned with the dollar's value in international trade? Then, you'll want a trade-weighted index (^[2] vs emerging economies, or ^[3] against developed ones.) If your concern is the dollar as a store of value over time, then an inflation-linked version would be better. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 17:57, 16 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Partington, Richard; correspondent, Richard Partington Economics (2025-03-18). "VR headsets, yoga mats and pool sliders added to UK 'inflation basket'". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2025-04-14. {{cite news}}: |last2= has generic name (help)
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[1] Partington, Richard; correspondent, Richard Partington Economics (2025-03-18). "VR headsets, yoga mats and pool sliders added to UK 'inflation basket'". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2025-04-14. {{cite news}}: |last2= has generic name (help)

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