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April 6

Russian icon

This icon is written about here, and the info sounds plausible to me. However, it's a WP:BLOG, so I'd like some WP:RS sources on it if possible, preferably in English. Perhaps there's a WP-article on it in some language, but I don't know what title it might have. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:54, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The blog post links to a pdf on the website of the Kremlin. I think we can consider it (in this context) a reliable source. Here, in a Russian blog post, you can see the icon in the iconostasis of the Cathedral of the Annunciation, Moscow, in a wider shot – in fact, the one in the English vlog is a cropped derivative. The Russian blog post links to the same pdf. ‑‑Lambiam 20:21, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I saw that pdf, my problem is I can't read it and GT doesn't seem to be working well on it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:04, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

For me google translate gives"1. Icon "Our Lady of the Don" (14th century, State Tretyakov Gallery) in a frame with an image of Old Testament righteous women (circa 1700; Kremlin Museums) Photomontage." for the caption of the icon on page 2 of the pdf and "V.G. CHUBINSKAYA PAINTING FRAME OF THE TURN OF THE XVII-XVIII CENTURIES FOR THE ICON "OUR MOTHER OF GOD OF THE DONSKAYA" (to the interpretation of the symbolic program)" for the heading of the PDF. The title of the icon is БОГОМАТЕРЬ ДОНСКАЯ which I might render in English as "Theotokos of the Don". That is Our Lady of the Don which is currently held in the Tretyakov Gallery and not Cathedral of the Annunciation, Moscow. Note that the central icon of the modern photos does not closely match the photo in the pdf or the color image in the blog post. Indeed the first paragraph of the pdf says "In the local row of the iconostasis of the Annunciation Cathedral of the Moscow Kremlin there is a frame with images of the Old Testament righteous women, created at the turn of the 17th-18th centuries in the painting workshop of the Armoury Chamber (ill. I)1 and intended for the icon "Our Lady of the Don" of the 14th century, 2 Unlike its famous and well-studied centerpiece, the frame has not attracted special attention from researchers until now. Meanwhile, the ancient icon, which received a new frame at the turn of the 17th-18th centuries and became, in fact, the center of the new work, was consciously included by the customers and creators of the frame in the historical, cultural and artistic context of its time, which gave it a completely new sound and imparted to the image of the Mother of God a symbolic meaning unusual for Old Russian art. The interpretation of the latter is the subject of this work." <Google translate>. Hope this helps. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:50, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I also found a couple of citations to another article by the author of the pdf "Chubinskaya, V. G. "Ikona Simona Ushakova «Bogomater'Vladimirskaya»,«Drevo Moskovskogo gosudarstva»,«Pohvala Bogomateri Vladimirskoj»(Opyt istoriko-kul'turnoj interpretacii)[Icon of Simon Ushakov" our lady of Vladimir"," Tree of the Moscow state"," Praise of our lady of Vladimir"(Experience of historical and cultural interpretation)]." Trudy Otdela drevnerusskoj literatury (1985): 290-308." so thay are definitely a subject matter expert. Eluchil404 (talk) 23:59, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Eluchil404@Lambiam Then it seems that in the Kreml-pdf picture, the frame is shown with Our Lady of the Don, but in the blog-photos, the same frame is shown with another icon? For one thing the icons face in different directions.

The Commons-pic/"detailed study" seems to a modern "re-make" perhaps a gift-shop poster. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:44, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be at least two, possibly three, real physical icons involved. The icon in the iconostasis of the Cathedral of the Annunciation is referred to as Шуйская-Смоленская икона Божией Матери ("Shuya–Smolensk icon of the Mother of God"), which, according to the Russian Wikipedia, was originally the name of a now lost icon, but is now used for any icon of this type, the distinctive feature being the characteristic position of Jesus's arms and legs. (The original disappeared around 1936.) The one in the Cathedral of the Annunciation may be a copy of the original Shuya–Smolensk icon, made before it was lost, with a frame of saints added (later?).

The "Our Lady of the Don" icon in the Tretyakov Gallery is much older than the original Shuya–Smolensk icon. It is of a different type.

The Commons image shown in this thread comes from the first album of the book Древности Российского государства (Antiquities of the Russian State) by Fedor Solntsev, which we have as a pdf file at the Commons: Antiquities of Russian country - Volume I (album). The image is on p. 37 of the file, with (like on most pages) an illegible caption. This album was published in 1849. The central icon, which is clearly a copy of "Our Lady of the Don", looks real to me, with the frame of saints as a later addition by a different artist. ‑‑Lambiam 06:23, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, then at least that pic is good for use. I'd like it if we could have a WP-article on that frame, it's quite interesting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:34, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see Commons also have another version, adding above. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:53, 7 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]