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April 23

Ethnic or other slur?

The word Gualdo has a number of meanings in Wikipedia and Wiktionary and in the first few hits of web search, but I saw it in a context that made it sound like a slur against some group, or maybe a political faction. Nothing I found said anything about that. Can anyone explain? Thanks. 2601:644:8581:75B0:86B1:F06:D9D0:84F6 (talk) 23:15, 23 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What was the context? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:47, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find the post now but it was someone on the interweb saying the proposed prisoner swap between El Salvador and Venezuela[1] would create an "army of gualdos". I tried to find out what a gualdo was in that context. 2601:644:8581:75B0:86B1:F06:D9D0:84F6 (talk) 04:04, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's a misspelling. That's been known to happen on the internet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:46, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I could imagine it being a hispanicization of the name Waldo, although I fail to understand the connotations. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:42, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wild speculation, but if this is the source of the term, perhaps it implies that the exchanged prisoners, presumed to be dangerous, would thereafter be able to 'disappear into the crowd' (as in Where's Waldo?) and be hard to subsequently track and monitor. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 00:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

ah yes, Güérez Gualdo —Tamfang (talk) 00:48, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Gualdo is apparently also a Spanish word for "yellow", wihch suggested a political group or faction. Apparently the locked-up Venezuelans who Bukele proposed to swap were all members of some right-wing movement. I don't know if the idea was for the prisoners to be freed, rather than just repatriated to their own country's jails. 2601:644:8581:75B0:7F06:C593:E17C:D28B (talk) 00:12, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

April 24

Ages in Spanish

When someone at their 18th birthday party gets asked about their age, why do they say "tengo dieciocho años" (lit. "I have eighteen years") and not "yo soy dieciocho" (lit. "I am eighteen")? TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 05:55, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Because that's how they say it. Spanish is not English. Also, I could argue that if they did use the "I am" construction, they might say "estoy" rather than "soy". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:44, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to go back to a variant phrasing in Latin. It's pretty futile to ask "why" other languages do things differently. It's just how they evolved. [2] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:20, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe TWO and 40bus are cousins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:08, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Repeat customers" would be a better term. TWOrantula^TM (enter the web) 20:38, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That much is certain. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:48, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No, they are the same person. 40TWO. That's the answer.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:39, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Some people seem to have the idea that translating one language into another can be done robotically, word by word. That is hardly ever possible. It's way more complex than that. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:33, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

When an English speaker (presumably aware of the fact that they are not a number) at their 18th birthday party gets asked about their age, why do they say, "I am eighteen"? It would make much more sense to reply with something like "I have eighteen years". All languages are weird, but some are weirder than others. ‑‑Lambiam 17:39, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In English, and other Germanic languages, it could be interpreted as a clipping of "I am eighteen years old.", which I think makes some more sense logically. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:22, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Saying "I have 18 years" sounds very odd to me. Those years are the past. I no longer have them. Actually, I never had them. They slipped away from me instant by instant. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:36, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you can still say "I have experience", which I find quite comparable. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Different languages do things in different ways, shock horror!

In Scots Gaelic, the question "How old are you – Dè 'n aois a tha thu?" would literally translate something like "How many years are to you (I think), which might seem weird to an Anglophone, but is of course entirely natural to a Gaelic speaker – which is also true of all other languages.

Language is complicated, evolves quickly, and has naturally evolved differently in different, separated settings. As others have said, "How?" is often an answerable question, "Why?" is often not. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.194.109.80 (talk) 22:41, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't get used much any more (and I don't know how popular it was previously), but it was once cromulent for a seventeen-year-old to say they were "in their eighteenth year". Some searching suggests that the format is still used, though by people a year older (i.e. eighteen-year-old people). The original usage technicalities may not be remembered. Matt Deres (talk) 17:25, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

So it's something of a "twentieth century expression"?... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:47, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

More like 19th century. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:35, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think Wakuran was just subtly pointing out that we number centuries in the same way. Saying I'm in my twentieth year is the same kind of form as saying I live in the twentieth century. Matt Deres (talk) 13:53, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Unit usage questions

Question 1

Do people in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland, which are now nearly fully metric, use phrases like "A few kilometres from here", "kilometres of plain sand", "I can see kilometres away from here"? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Australia we tend to say "k's" (kays), reserving "kilometres" for more formal use. The first example, definitely. The other two, not so much. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:31, 26 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Canada, it would be more idiomatic to use "miles" in those examples. "Kilometres" would certainly be understood, but the number of syllables makes it stilted to use in everyday speech. Matt Deres (talk) 15:52, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I teach Maths in an Australian high schools. Most of the students have no idea how long a mile is with any precision at all. I think most of them know it's somewhat longer than a kilometre, but nothing more accurate than that. I probably have said "A few kilometres from here" or something similar. Not so sure about the other two. I think I would have thrown in an approximate round number of kilometres, for example "About 10 kilometres of plain sand" HiLo48 (talk) 23:57, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Question 2

Are there any expressions, proverbs or idioms mentioning a metric unit in any variety of English? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

2. Well, the second is a metric unit, but I take it not one that you're interested in here. Also, if I'm to believe the good people at Collins Dictionaries the idiom like a ton of bricks occasionally appears as like a tonne of bricks. --Antiquary (talk) 11:32, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the word second is ambiguous, When measured by atomic clocks it is indeed a metric unit, but as 1/86 400 of the mean solar day it was introduced by Al-Biruni some 1,800 years before the metric system was thought of.

Americans often use the phrase "a metric ton" to mean a large quantity. (A usage that confused me as a Brit, until I realised that the default ton in the US was the short ton (2000lb, or 907kg), and so smaller than the 1000kg metric ton and the 2240lb (1016kg) long ton used in the UK). Iapetus (talk) 12:07, 1 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Question 3

Are there any placenames in English-speaking areas which are named after metric distances, as if 100 Mile House were 100 Kilometre House? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not yet, that I know of. HiLo48 (talk) 23:42, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Question 4

Do people in countries listed in Question 1 say "half a kilometre" when referring to 500 m? Do they write 1⁄2 km? --40bus (talk) 22:15, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Re 4: You can find this in use by the US Army: [3]. Also, the Canadian creator of the article Mount Stephen wrote: "1⁄2 km east of Field". ‑‑Lambiam 23:38, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

IIRC, The US Army would often use the slang variant "click" for kilometer. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:56, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Usually spelled klick. Deor (talk) 14:08, 25 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Canada, yes. Elementary school tried to bash into my brain that metric measures could never be referred to with fractions, but "half a kilometre" gets used often enough (when we use kilometres at all). "500 meters" sounds too precise. Matt Deres (talk) 18:21, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Never? Is that a prescriptivist rule similar to the split infinitive objection? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:56, 28 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Using the SI system, the value of a physical quantity is reported in the form "⟨NUMBER⟩ ⟨UNIT SYMBOL⟩", in which the numerical value is given in a decimal representation. So "4.5 V battery" is fine, but "4½ V battery" is non-standard. However, when the name of the unit is spelled out, the ordinary rules of grammar apply. Writing, in prose, "four and a half volts", is impeccable. ‑‑Lambiam 09:17, 29 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]

1⁄2 km is unlikely to be written because it's too hard to write. HiLo48 (talk) 23:45, 2 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How is that, exactly? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 09:15, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is no 1⁄2 key on computer keyboards. HiLo48 (talk) 09:20, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is a wonderful technology called handwriting. Using this technology, writing 1⁄2 is easier than 0.5. Each character in 1⁄2 is written with just a single stroke, while 5 is usually written with two strokes, and closing the loop of the 0 requires more mastery than executing an open stroke. ‑‑Lambiam 09:27, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Who uses handwriting these days? HiLo48 (talk) 09:36, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Even on computers, I might probably write 1/2, occasionally. (It's arguably possible to mix up with the sense "1 or 2", but I think it should generally be construed correctly out of context.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I use handwriting for shopping lists and greeting cards and for simple to-do lists and for phone numbers I will probably use only once. Cullen328 (talk) 07:16, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 4

"Could I have..."

I was taught that the polite way to ask for something in a grocery or take-away food shop was "Could I have such and such please." But the indolent youth of today seem to insist on saying "Could I get such and such please", which to me is an abomination and smacks of uncouth Americanisation. Or am I being too harsh? Are there regional differences, as I live in one of the better parts of England! 2A00:23C7:533:3C01:190F:C79:C9D2:D057 (talk) 12:14, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me if a customer says "can I get" and the employee brings it to them, they can walk out witĥ it without paying.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:17, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Undoubtedly American, and uncouth. DuncanHill (talk) 19:06, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have plenty of get-off-my-lawn peeves of my own, but this is about the least motivated one I can imagine. What in the world is less polite about "get" compared to "have"??? One seems to emphasize the process of acquiring the item versus the state of possessing it, but that's about the only difference I can see. They're both peculiar circumlocutions, being in the conditional mood and asking whether something is possible rather than asking for the thing. Paraphrasing, it's something like "under unspecified but likely false conditions, would a possible world exist in which I have/acquire the item under discussion?" The answer "yes" does not seem to be an agreement to provide the item, merely an agreement that under such conditions, such a possible world would exist. --Trovatore (talk) 19:48, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Starting either sentence with "May I" would be better. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:06, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

With "may", literally speaking, you're asking for permission to have/acquire the item. That doesn't make a lot of sense either. It's usually not about permission; you're requesting a service from the other person. --Trovatore (talk) 20:10, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Where are we, 1813 or something? It's all predicated on what the barrista asks. If she says "What can I get you?", the easy, simple and polite answer is just "A flat white, please." Martinevans123 (talk) 20:52, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Customer: "Can I get a flat white?" Waitress: "Not here, but I can get one for you. If you want to get it yourself go home." DuncanHill (talk) 21:11, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear. Now we seem to have Mr Darcy stumbling into the Costa Coffee in Tunbridge Wells... Martinevans123 (talk) 21:19, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Get" is one of the most overloaded verbs in the English language. I expect in any random large dictionary you'll find at least a dozen meanings. To be fair, a lot of those will be as part of phrasal verbs, which isn't under discussion here.

But one of the core meanings is "receive" or "acquire". When the barista gives you a coffee, you do get it. Otherwise how would you drink it? --Trovatore (talk) 21:27, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

You just don't get it, do you? DuncanHill (talk) 21:36, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I get that you're trying to defend an indefensible position. --Trovatore (talk) 21:37, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That British English and American English work differently? DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That there's something inherently rude about saying "get a cup of coffee". --Trovatore (talk) 22:14, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Uncouth. OED: "unfamiliar or strange... odd, uncomely, awkward, or clumsy... awkward and uncultured". I never said "inherently rude". It is, however, inherently rude to say I said something which I did not. DuncanHill (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, the original comment did (I presume half-jokingly) call us get-users "indolent", it wouldn't be too farfetched to interpret that disdain as being a result of finding the phrasing (and its perceived lack of manners) rude. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:51, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The youth in my part of Australia seem to say "Can I please have....", which seems somehow wrong to my ageing ears. HiLo48 (talk) 07:44, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"May I please have" is better. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, lady ...

I was in a shop on Saturday, second in the queue. The woman in front was served, paid, and left. I stepped up, and discovered she had left her glasses on the ledge below the counter. I was moved to call out to her, and I was just about to yell "Hey, lady, you've forgotten your glasses" but I realised that would sound crass and vulgar, so I said "Hey, madam, ...". She heard me, and came back for her glasses, thanking me.

As I was basking in the sunlight of my kindness, I reflected that as a child, I was taught to refer to women as ladies, and that has pretty much always been my way. Ladies are obviously women, but there's something not quite right about referring to them as such. Don't ask me to explain it, it's subtle and probably culturally complex. Yet, to call out "Hey, lady" in public would be an even worse social sin. Nobody is ever called "Madam" these days (not even Ethel Merman), but that seemed the only choice I had left in that moment of crisis and high drama.

Is there a term for a word choice that is preferred in one context (not women, but ladies) but contraindicated in another (Not "hey, lady", but "hey, madam")? (Please don't get into whether "hey" was an appropriate choice, or whether it irretrievably outed me as the vulgarian I spend my life trying not to be.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:22, 4 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This is not quite responsive, but it brings to mind a memory. One time I was out to dinner with my mother and sister. I think we were taking my mom out for her birthday or something. The waiter kept addressing my mom as "lady". It was clear to my sister and me that this was intended to be a term of respect — the waiter seemed likely to be Mexican (as in from Mexico, not just of Mexican ancestry) and was perhaps thinking in Spanish, translating the title "Señora". But it didn't come across to my Mississippian mother. --Trovatore (talk) 00:02, 5 May 2025 (UTC) [reply]

Some subtlety of politeness or manners. And I would use "ma'am", not "madam", which is kind of old-fashioned. For whatever reason, calling a woman just "lady" has come to be kind of insulting, even though referring to them indirectly as "ladies" still works. Similarly, I wouldn't call a man "mister", but "sir". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:23, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the various uses of "lady",[4] it occurs to me that in your context, even better than "ma'am", though much more old-fashioned, could be "me lady". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:27, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The use of ma'am versus madam varies by region; see Wiktionary:ma'am#Usage notes. ‑‑Lambiam 09:00, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I take it that the establishment in which this incident occurred was not one in which "Coo-ee, Sheila!" would have been appropriate? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.2.101.226 (talk) 06:36, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There are no places where such a thing would be said. By anyone. Ever. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:40, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would just have said "excuse me" to get her attention. --Viennese Waltz 06:58, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I recall once when the women in the office were referring to each other as "girls". Like a good wannabe feminist, I questioned that, and the answer was, "Women are 'old'!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:58, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

But woe betide a man who calls them "girls" these days. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:38, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Grrlz ? ‑‑Lambiam 09:04, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would never, ever use "madam" due to one of its meanings having to do with procuring (prostitution). "Lady" is a bit unusual in these here parts, so IMO ma'am is the safest choice. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:27, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that's similar how to "colored person" is considered extremely offensive, while the correct term is "person of color". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:41, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, aside from use at some high society events that I would never be invited to, calling a woman "madam" where I live would probably result in her slapping you. Or her husband/boyfriend (or brother or father) from inflicting even more physical damage upon you. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:50, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Or old-fashioned formality, as with the opening lines of "Paperback Writer": "Dear sir or madam, will you read my book? It took me years to write, will you take a look?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:22, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, sure, but some stuff hit differently depending on the mode of communication. The song is a quote from a letter and starting letters with Sir/Madam is not the same as starting a verbal conversation. For example, you wouldn't end your conversation with "With kindest regards..." either. Matt Deres (talk) 14:04, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

ISMO has a routine about being called "sir" and how it generally means you're in trouble somehow. It's funny because it's true. --Trovatore (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2025 (UTC) [reply]

In an early Simpsons episode, Homer longs for the situation of being called "Sir" without having "You're making a scene" appended. FWIW, I call and am called sir many times a day; it just seems to be standard address among coworkers here. Matt Deres (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

May 5

"Bidirectional" language instruction

Is there a term for a language class where speakers of two languages each learn the other's language? And is there a pedagogical tradition of this anywhere? 71.126.56.251 (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Language exchange seems somewhat close to what you have in mind, although the article doesn't look particularly good. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:14, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In Sweden, I have heard about tandem meetups, but they're rather just two persons meeting than regular classes. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:43, 5 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]