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Ludwig van Beethoven
portrait
Beethoven (1820)
Born
Bonn
Baptised17 December 1770
Died26 March 1827(1827-03-26) (aged 56)
Vienna
Occupations
  • Composer
  • pianist
WorksList of compositions
Parent(s)Johann van Beethoven
Maria Magdalena Keverich
Signature

In the discussion above regarding FORCELINK, MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE was raised.

When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. (That is, an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below.) The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content. Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function.

Does MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE prohibit biography article infoboxes from linking to list of awards/works? Below are examples of some articles that include infobox links to related articles.

Clarification on this issue will be helpful since it affects a lot of articles. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 21:14, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes

  • It breaches INFOBOXPURPOSE (and FORCELINK). The entry “Works: Full list" does not "allow readers to identify key facts at a glance". The key facts are only available by clicking onto a different page, which goes against the purpose and spirit of what an IB is supposed to be and do. - SchroCat (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Per above. It also doesn't make a lot of sense to argue that [[List of works|List of works]] is okay when [[#Works|List of works]] is not, per Bagumba. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:32, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Per above. Please keep infoboxes concise and include only key facts. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:40, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • For the Beethoven example, Ludwig van Beethoven § Music details his music career, and includes a link there to the comprehensive list. MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE reads:

    Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function

    It seems to violate the spirit of that guidance to link directly outside the page, when we don't link to the related section that's on the page (and in the TOC). It's more elegant for the reader to stay on the page, reading higher-level content first and being offered more detailed off-page links from the body.—Bagumba (talk) 04:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Per Nikkimaria above. Ajpolino (talk) 17:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

No

  • Linking to a related article that includes a full awards/works is not prohibited by MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. I don't object to how it's used at Barack Obama as well. However, these links should not be used for content that's included in the article. Avoid links to sections within the article; the table of contents provides that function. Setting aside the policy argument, the reason these links have existed in many different articles is because they're useful. Making information more difficult to find for end users is something we should avoid. Thanks! - Nemov (talk) 21:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No. We have the ability to set our own guidance here, so I'm a lot less persuaded by arguments about what the guideline says/doesn't say than arguments about what it ought to say. We discussed this issue not too long ago at this thread, which I don't think others have linked yet but which I'd recommend participants read. Quoting myself from there:

    I've always found links to lists in infoboxes slightly odd, but they're highly relevant to the subject, and reader data shows that having them is important for helping readers discover the list. The only alternative seems to be leaving them out, which doesn't feel optimal.

    Sdkb talk 03:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • As I wrote above, such links to articles listing works/awards save readers interested in those skimming the article looking for a {{Main}} or {{Further}} link. Bagumba's suggestion below to allow for sidebar functionality strikes me as sensible. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
    To be clear, I haven't said it should be allowed. I only stated that sidebar functionality seems to effectively be what some are arguing for. —Bagumba (talk) 05:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • It shouldn't. These links, whether to sections of the same article or to a sub-article, are very clearly beneficial to readers so they should be allowed, even encouraged in some cases. If this is contrary to the current guideline then the guideline needs to be changed. Thryduulf (talk) 11:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No - similar to what Nemov said, the policy prohibits links to sections within the article, because there is a table of contents for that. There is no ToC for links to other articles, and though one could argue that the 'See also' section serves that purpose, but should a section at the very bottom of an article contain necessary links for a reader to have access to? I think not. Fully support having links to other articles in infoboxes. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No. I believe that a list of a composer's compositions is the most neutral and complete summary of their achievements, and a link to it early - in both infobox and lead - should be wanted, saving the reader to scroll to a Music section or the footer navbox. I don't see the wording of the guidelines contrary to presenting such a link in the infobox, - FORCELINK speaks of sentences, so not about infobox data; the reader of a printed version is not forced to follow a link, but can read what the printed version says about the music. Why not offer the link as a convenience to the (estimated) 99% of readers who will be able to click? There is interest see here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No. The key facts of some kinds of subject will invariably include things that may become too large to include directly. It makes no sense to omit them arbitrarily based on their size: Beethoven having more compositions than can fit directly in an infobox does not diminish their importance to a reader. The alternative to a link would be some sort of collapsible or truncation, both of which clearly hinder usability to follow an arbitrary standard. ― novov (t c) 08:54, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No, but the links should be made as informative as possible, see this earlier discussion on the topic. "Works: List of compositions", as in the infobox at the top of this discussion, gives more information than something trivial like "Works: Full list", and should hence be preferred. Gawaon (talk) 10:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
    The line that was removed (four times) was "List of compositions". If wanted it could be made more precise, such as for Vivaldi: Lists of operas, concertos and other compositions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
    Well, if it can be made more informative, that's arguably even better. In the earlier discussion, the line arrived at for Rossini was "Works: Thirty-nine operas · Other compositions" (with two different links). I'm a bit sad that there is no infobox in the actual article on Rossini. Gawaon (talk) 11:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No, and it shouldn't. A composer's list of works is a "key fact," or something many readers will of course be looking for. It helps the reader to either offer a list of the works (if short enough), or a link to a list. We shouldn't try to force the reader to first read "high quality content" before getting to where the reader wants to go. Help the reader by giving them quick links to where they want to go, don't try to control the reader by forcing them on a linear content path, it's paternalistic. Levivich (talk) 08:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    Also there is no TOC on mobile. Taking the Beethoven example, to get to the list of compositions (without using the infobox link), the mobile reader must scroll down several screens (past the infobox, past the entire lead), open up the "music" level 2 heading, and then click on the hatnote link. A link in the infobox would make that much easier. Also the link should go to a subsection of the article if there is not a separate sub article. Put "list of works" link in the same place on every article about a person with a list of works. That's good web design: predictable, easy, standard. Levivich (talk) 20:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No per Mir Novov. As I wrote last October, It gives a list of [the composer's] works, something the article does not fully cover, because the entire list of his works cannot be handled in the article. It is a different article. It does not attempt to cover the same subject as [the composer article]. The section "works" is best summed up as a link to the longer article of his works. This is, as I showed above, exactly what that line in the infobox is for. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 14:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No. When someone has a list article about their creative works, it generally indicates two things: (1) that the creation of those works is a meaningful part of that person's notability, and (2) that they have been prolific enough that it would be impractical to list all of their work in an infobox. Linking directly to "list of works" articles is a compact, stable, and easy-to-find way to get this significant information in front of readers' eyes. By contrast: trying to list everything on (for example) Johnny Cash albums discography in an infobox is obviously unworkable, and mentioning only specific works by name has historically been a breeding ground for cruft and edit-warring. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:06, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  • No MyCatIsAChonk and Gerda Arendt.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 20:35, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
  • INFOBOXPURPOSE prohibits links to sections, from my reading of it it doesn't mention links to other articles. I would support the continued prohibition of section links. FORCELINK says not to use links if the reader has to use that link to understand the link (or that's my generalised reading of it). I don't see any reader being confused by "Works     List of compositions" (or similar), so I don't see it prohibiting such links to other articles. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 02:23, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Comments

This question is so badly formed it’s not worth approaching or voting on. Any information in an article is “related” - that’s why the information is in the IB. This can be taken as being if the (linked) place of birth is allowed, because it’s related. Can I suggest you frame the question properly first? - SchroCat (talk) 22:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I'll need two versions of the same bio infobox, to fully understand what's being asked. GoodDay (talk) 03:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

You can review the infobox of James Earl Jones in the above discussion that features a link to his "full works." Each example has a link that goes to a full list of awards/works/etc. The content in these related articles is too big for the main article. Also added example of the Ludwig van Beethoven infobox which features a link to list of his compositions. Nemov (talk) 03:56, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the contention is whether MOS:INFOBOX should be modified to allow WP:SIDEBAR functionality in an infobox. If so, the debate is not on what MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE currently says, but on what it could be modifed to say.—Bagumba (talk) 04:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

What would something like that look like for a biography? Nemov (talk) 04:36, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE says an ibx should summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. However, some want to allow navigation links, like a sidebar would, which does not directly summarize notable achievements to the ibx reader.—Bagumba (talk) 05:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Given this use is against INFOBOXPURPOSE as it’s stands (even the sensible ‘no’ !votes are more about the links being “useful” than about whether they are compliant with the guidelines), then recasting the guideline to bring it in line with the proposed use would be the only way to avoid the breaches such use brings, and to avoid any future misuse of IBs (based on this ‘thin end of the wedge’ misuse like this). Changing the basis of INFOBOXPURPOSE would, I think, need a centrally advertised RfC based on wording that allows this use, but that avoids any other problems. It should not be too onerous to change the wording at PURPOSE to reflect the current use, but it does need to be done properly, rather than just ignored. - SchroCat (talk) 07:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Popping in here because I had a similar discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Linking (see here). It seems that the main argument for the Yes side is that the wording of INFOBOXPURPOSE prevents these kinds of links. Where would an RfC to change the wording of that guideline be started? MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 11:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Let's see how is discussion plays out. Given how many articles this affects, we would need a pretty clear consensus to say these links violate INFOBOX purpose. Nemov (talk) 13:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
It seems that the main argument for the Yes side is that the wording of INFOBOXPURPOSE prevents these kinds of links: But that's exactly how the question was framed (Does MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE prohibit...). It wasn't an open ended, "is it a good good idea to..." —Bagumba (talk) 13:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
Given most of the sensible 'no' !votes that haven't stuck their heads in the sand acknowledge that current practice isn't in line with the wording ("less persuaded by arguments about what the guideline says/doesn't say than arguments about what it ought to say", "If this is contrary to the current guideline then the guideline needs to be changed", etc), these are also more towards supporting a wording change (which needs an RfC), than the current standing is more towards changing the wording. This who are ignoring the problem are just not reading the guideline in full, or ignoring the bits they don't want to acknowledge. It may as well be done properly - it's not like this is a pressing problem that needs sorting immediately. I suspect an RfC supporting the wording change would be well supported, but given it changes what the purpose of the IB is, it's not something that can be done in a half-arsed way by sneaking through something others may want to have input on. - SchroCat (talk) 16:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Preparing for changing MOS:INFOBOX

Considering that four more no votes have been added in the past two days, I believe it's appropriate to prepare for an RfC to changing the wording of some sections in MOS:INFOBOX. To summarize the arguments: links to "lists of works/albums/operas/songs/others" in infoboxes do not violate MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE because they are not links to sections within the article and are key facts that readers may want access to early in an article. Additionally, these links do not violate MOS:FORCELINK because FORCELINK deals with sentences, and infoboxes are not part of the text.

Here are the proposals I'd put up at the RfC, and please make an alterations or additions or comments you fee' are necessary before the RfC is opened:

  • Proposal A: Amend the first paragraph of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE with: "Links to other articles are allowed but should be informative: see the section below Links to other articles."
  • Proposal B: Create a subsection under "Design principles" titled "Links to other articles" with the following text: "Links to other relevant articles, such as lists of works, may be used, but should be as informative as possible (e.g. "Thirty-nine operas ⋅ Other compositions" is preferable to just "Full list"). Like other infobox parameters, the link must also appear in the body of the article."

-MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure RFC is even necessary. These links have existed for quite some time with no incident. I brought the issue here since it was a relatively new objection. If there's going to be a change made the onus would be on infobox minimalists to change INFOBOXPURPOSE to expressly prohibit these type of links. However, there appears to be very little support for making this change. - Nemov (talk) 13:41, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
@Nemov, I feel the need to initiate this because of strong pushback from some at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music. Just look at Rossini: numerous oppositions to having an infobox there, in spite of our own discussion here. Or look to Cosima Wagner: that discussion got rather unpleasant quickly. There have even been comparisons to Nazis! I feel that changing the policy is the only way to truly standardize IBs across articles, especially for composers. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 14:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
(ec) Given that the 4 opponents' argument is the current wording of MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, I agree that a wider discussion might be needed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:04, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
I agree such an RFC may be needed (as the one who IIRC came up with the "thirty-nine operas" piping, I'd support B), but please let's not make this about whether we should have infoboxes at all, or the opportunity for a small improvement will be lost in division over that larger issue and we'll have WP:ARBINFOBOX and WP:ARBINFOBOX2 looming over us as well. NebY (talk) 15:54, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
If a person did not already have a standalone list of works, but had an elaborate list embedded on their bio, it also seems inconsistent why we would allow a link to another page, but not a link to similar content on the same page. So to me, the question is whether a link to any list, either internal or external to the bio, is suitable.—Bagumba (talk) 14:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Bagumba. If the list is too complicated and/or extensive to summarise in an infobox there should be a link to it from the infobox, regardless of whether it's a section on the same article or a separate article. It's equally valuable to readers in both places. Thryduulf (talk) 14:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
If the list is too complicated and/or extensive to summarise in an infobox...: That's where I'm not convinced yet that a link is needed. Invariably, a decent lead already has select works mentioned, by no means an exhaustive list. If an editorial decision can be made on what works to highlight in the lead's prose, why is it not similarly possible to determine what works to highlight in an infobox, providing readers the quick overview of key fact that is an infobox's purpose? —Bagumba (talk) 15:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
@Bagumba, the difficulty with putting famous works (like in Pablo Picasso's article) in the infobox is that it a) creates great clutter in the box (just see how long Picasso's is) and b) does not work for famous things with common titles. On the topic of point b, take for example Beethoven: some of his most famous works are the Symphony No. 5 and No. 9, the Piano Concerto No. 5, many of his late string quartets, his opera Fidelio, many many piano sonatas (including the very famous Moonlight), Fur Elise, etc etc. My point is that listing works does not always work, and it especially doesn't work for composers. This is why many discussion related to this result from composer articles: listing works does not work for such monumental and complex figures. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 23:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
listing works does not work for such monumental and complex figures: But a decent article already makes such editorial decisions regarding which works are to be mention in the lead's prose.—Bagumba (talk) 06:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
@Bagumba, imagine the leads for the articles on Mahler and Beethoven. If we had a sentence for their best-known works, set up like in the first para of Sergei Prokofiev's lead, they'd look like this:
- Beethoven's works include such widely heard pieces as the Fifth Symphony, Ninth Symphony, and Fifth Piano Concerto.
- Mahler's works include such widely heard pieces as the Fifth Symphony, Ninth Symphony, and Second Symphony.
Of course, this is cherry-picking works without titles, but it makes a good point: both Mahler and Beethoven are best known for their symphonies, most of which are indistinguishable from each other without including a link. And, we know from the FORCELINK discussion above that you can't distuinguish something just by linking it.
That is why we need to use the "Works" parameter in the infobox: providing quick access to a list of works that's much more detailed than the lead provides clarification for the reader without confusing the names of works. But, even then, look at some composer FAs as they stand: Mahler's works aren't even mentioned until para 3 of the lead, and only three are stated; or see Richard Wagner, who's Ring Cycle is the only work mentioned in the lead besides Meistersinger; or even Gustav Holst, which only talks about The Planets and disregards his other work. All three of those composers are FAs, and yet their leads don't mention many of their works. We need infoboxes in these articles to provide better access to the list of compositions, so readers don't have to click around to find something that should be obvious from the start. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 10:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
As someone pointed out above, isn't that what a table of contents is for? If there is appetite for this, I would encourage a separate question (possibly a separate RfC, running at the same time) that provides new wording that specifically allows this. If a blind eye is turned on smaller points, it will become a bigger problem later, so it may as well be done properly now to get it right. - SchroCat (talk) 18:02, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
isn't that what a table of contents is for why should a reader need to hunt for the TOC and follow a link to what may or may not be an intuitively named section when they could just follow a link right where they are currently looking, especially when that is where the information (or a link to it) is located in other articles and there is no indication that they need to do so? Thryduulf (talk) 18:10, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Take that line of argument up with Mycatisachonk, who used it to support their ‘no’ vote. Given this is specifically barred by the guidelines, I’m not sure why the reticence to open it up to the community for comment. - SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Those questions seem appropriate for dealing with the PURPOSE point, although once it is opened up, there is a good chance the wider readership may disagree entirely with changing the purpose, so you may want to think about including an Option 3 of not changing the section (and therefore not allowing these links). I suspect it will get very few !votes, but it should be included - to avoid giving a fait accompli if nothing else.
    If you are opening an RfC on this, the cherrypicking of FORCELINK should be addressed to deal with the part of the guideline that specifically refers to not linking to parts that are useless for the time when "The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links": "Works: List of Works" is a breach of the guidelines as they currently stand. Having a second RfC running at the same time as the first would be the most efficient way of also dealing with this conflict - its certainly better than ignoring the problem or pretending there isn't an issue. - SchroCat (talk) 17:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    "Works: List of Works" is a breach of the guidelines this can easily be solved by replacing "List of works" with an informative phrase such as "See List of works by Bach", see the #Compositions section", or similar. This shouldn't require an RFC. Thryduulf (talk) 18:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    Again, I’m not sure why the opposition to opening it up to the community. ”Works: See List of works by Bach" is still a breach of the guidelines as they currently stand. It may as well get wider input and a solid consensus for a change. - SchroCat (talk) 19:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    I'm not opposed to an RFC, I just don't think it's required. Thryduulf (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    @Thryduulf, as I said to Nemov above, I feel the need to initiate this because of strong pushback from some at Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music. Implementing "See List of works by Bach" is a great idea that I would love to just work, but there is strong opposition to that idea in the WPClassical community. That is mainly why an RfC is needed- to change the guidelines and formally allow this parameter to be used as it's intended. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 20:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    I don't object. I would object to Option 3 as worded above. This discussion has settled the main question, INFOBOXPURPUSE doesn't specifically prohibit these links. This RFC would simply present a proposal that gives some guidelines on how to make these links clearer. Nemov (talk) 21:13, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Next steps

This discussion was promoted at WP:VPP, WT:BIOG, and WT:BLP, so this question has been open for wider community feedback. There's clearly no consensus so far that these links prohibit INFOBOXPURPOSE. These links appear to have support from the community, but perhaps there could be some clarification about their specific use in a future RFC. MyCatIsAChonk, do you want to proceed with that? You could use the village pump to workshop the language if you feel it needs more work. Nemov (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for spreading the word and ensuring people are aware of the discussion- I've posted a message at the village pump for feedback on the wording of the proposals, since the discussion here has mostly been about the merits of an RfC. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 18:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
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